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Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection
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Georgia--History
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Oral history collection consisting of interviews conducted for the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies since 2003.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=3&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2003-ongoing
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Oral histories
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RBRL175OHD
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Georgia
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5.3 Interview with Anthony A. Alaimo, March 4, 2005 RBRL175OHD-004 RBRL175OHD Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection OHD-004 Interview with Anthony Alaimo finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Anthony A. Alaimo Charles E. Campbell 1:|11(5)|22(9)|33(15)|49(12)|65(4)|91(4)|112(9)|130(5)|159(4)|188(11)|219(4)|243(10)|273(8)|292(4)|300(1)|318(2)|355(7)|368(16)|383(11)|397(14)|417(10)|427(13)|453(15)|478(3)|502(14)|518(5)|540(8)|561(14)|582(5)|595(1)|606(10)|617(10)|628(12)|646(2)|666(12)|687(8)|703(9)|727(10)|752(13)|762(12)|774(14)|786(6)|804(12)|813(12)|825(16)|837(12)|859(4)|872(9)|898(15)|911(4)|929(7)|944(12)|958(5)|974(4)|989(7)|1007(13)|1025(3)|1037(15)|1050(6)|1082(3)|1110(10)|1143(7)|1167(12)|1199(13)|1229(4)|1241(10)|1253(4)|1290(3)|1319(6)|1341(2)|1361(4)|1370(12)|1378(1)|1412(4)|1434(14)|1447(3)|1468(10)|1495(2)|1512(6)|1525(1)|1546(1)|1567(15)|1584(11)|1602(12)|1620(14)|1636(17) 0 http://youtu.be/OLkI43tpTGs YouTube video English 11 Introduction / Overview of Alaimo's life Campbell introduces Anthony Alaimo. Campbell summarizes Alaimo's early life, education, participation in World War II, and his tenure as a judge in the U.S. District Court (Southern District of Georgia) 17 202 Early life and education But let's start at the beginning. Alaimo discusses his family's life in Italy and Argentina, and their subsequent immigration to the U.S. He reflects on his early life, his childhood hobbies, and his family's language and religion. Alaimo discusses both studying and working in college. immigration ; Italy ; Methodist ; Ohio Northern University ; religion 17 642 Army pilot training and deployment 1940--so World War II was underway. Alaimo mentions his reasons for enlisting in the Army Air Corps during World War II. He also discusses his training as an army pilot, as well as his deployment to Europe. Alaimo describes his experience of piloting and the style of low-level flying practiced in the Army at the time. Air Corps ; draft ; Pearl Harbor ; pilot training ; World War II ; WWII 17 1012 Bombing raid and POW capture Now, I think it was in May that the mission you were on... Alaimo recounts the events of a botched bombing raid and the evacuation of his aircraft. He reflects on his capture by a German patrol boat and his subsequent medical treatment and transfer to a prisoner-of-war camp. He recounts listening to BBC broadcast Allied news within the POW camp. bomber pilot ; bombing raid ; Germany ; Holland ; Moosburg ; North Sea ; POW ; Stalag Luft III ; World War II ; WWII 17 1699 First escape attempt - " ; The Great Escape" ; There was a film called " ; The Great Escape" ; and you had a role in what became " ; The Great Escape," ; tell us about that. Alaimo recounts the construction of an escape tunnel at the Stalag Luft III prisoner-of-war camp. He discusses his role in helping create the tunnel and his transfer to another camp before the escape took place. Alaimo also comments on the fate of the prisoners who escaped and the repercussion of the escape attempt on prisoners in other camps. He discusses how these events were the basis of the movie " ; The Great Escape" ; . POW ; prison escape ; prisoner of war camp ; Stalag Luft III ; The Great Escape ; tunnel mining 17 2235 Repeated escape attempts Now after the people that escaped in the " ; Great Escape" ; experienced the fate that they did, did that take away your desire to escape? Alaimo reflects on his arduous experience of being transferred between POW camps and his impression of the Moorsburg camp. Alaimo also recounts his repeated attempts to escape from the camps and the punishment he received as a result. escape attempt ; Moosburg ; POW camp ; prisoner of war 17 2779 Successful escape in Munich Tell us about that one. What happened then? Alaimo recounts his fourth escape attempt which turned out be successful. He reflects on his journey through Germany to Italy and eventually to the neutral Switzerland. Alaimo also reflects on help of Frenchmen and Italian partisans along the way. He also comments on his visit to the opera during his stay in Milan. border crossing ; Italian partisans ; Italy ; Milan ; neutrality ; Switzerland ; World War II ; WWII 17 3557 Returning home after the war / Law school and law practice After the war you came back and got married to a young lady you had met in college. Alaimo reflects on his personal and professional life after the war. He discusses attending Emory Law School on the GI Bill and later working in the law practice of Reuben Garland. He discusses some notable cases during his Atlanta career and his subsequent move to Brunswick, Georgia. Atlanta, Georgia ; Brunswick, Georgia ; Emory Law School ; law practice ; Reuben Garland ; Way Highsmith 17 4081 Work as judge / Prison reform cases When did you first become interested in being a judge and what accounted for that? Alaimo discusses his selection as judge to the Georgia Southern Court District. He also discusses his involvement in significant cases such as the Reedsville Prison reform case. He comments on his invitation to Atlanta to try a case involving the administration of the Atlanta airport. Atlanta airport case ; Georgia State Prison ; Guthrie v. Evans ; judge selection process ; jury sequestering ; prison reform ; Reidsville, Georgia ; southern court district 17 4632 Reflection on judicial career / Conclusion Now aside from the prison reform case and the Atlanta reform case, what would you say is the most interesting case you've had? Alaimo characterizes the types of cases he has participated in and discusses his personal preferences as well as hardships in trying cases. He discusses the streamlining of court procedure through the reform and creation of local laws. He comments on the nature of the jury system as well as on his participation as visiting judge in courts across the country. federal sentencing guidelines ; local rule ; naturalization ; Speedy Trial Act ; United States v. Booker 17 Oral History CAMPBELL: This is an interview with the Honorable Anthony A. Alaimo, senior United States District Court Judge for the Southern District of Georgia, being conducted on March 4, 2005 as a part of the Richard B. Russell Documentary Oral History Series by the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies at the University of Georgia. This interview is being conducted in the Courtroom of Judge Alaimo in the federal building in Brunswick, Georgia where he has sat as a federal District Court judge for almost thirty-five years. My name is Charles Campbell and I have been asked by the Russell Library to conduct this interview. The transcript of this interview will be available to researchers, students and visitors to the Russell Library in Athens, GA. Judge Alaimo had already lived a remarkable life before being appointed as federal judge in 1971. Born in 1920 on the island of Sicily off the coast of Italy, he came to the United States with his family at age two and grew up in Jamestown, New York where he attended grade school and high school. Upon graduation from high school, he enrolled in Ohio Northern University. Upon his graduation of Ohio Northern, during the middle of World War II, he immediately enlisted in the Army Air Corps. as a fighter pilot. Upon the completion of his training, he was assigned to the European theatre in World War II. His aircraft was shot down by German artillery in a bombing raid of an electrical facility in Holland. Severely injured he ditched his plane in the North Sea, where all the members of the crew, other than Judge Alaimo, perished. He was captured by German patrol boats, and spent over a month in German hospitals, prior to being assigned to a German prisoner of war camp. While incarcerated Judge Alaimo participated in a number of daring escape attempts, including the one that later became the subject of the film the Great Escape. After the war, Judge Alaimo came back to the United States and attended Law School at Emory University School of law on the G.I. Bill. Following graduation from Emory Law School, he entered law practice in Atlanta, where he had a successful trial practice for ten years. He then moved to the Georgia coast, settling in Brunswick, GA where he had a very successful trail practice for almost fifteen years before being appointed Federal Judge in December of 1971 by President Nixon. He served as Chief Judge of the Southern District Court from November 1, 1976 until March 28, 1990. We will talk about all of this and more in the next hour and a half. I want to begin by thanking you Judge Alaimo for participating in this oral history interview with the Russell Library. ALAIMO: Probably ought to thank you. CAMPBELL: Well we are delighted to be here. You have such a remarkable life to talk about and an hour and a half is not very long to do it. Toward the end of the interview we are going to talk about your service as a Federal District Judge for almost thirty-five years, but let' ; s start at the beginning. You were born in Sicily. You probably don' ; t remember much about the two years there, but tell us something about your family and your early life. ALAIMO: Well, my parents were peasants. In fact that was one of the reasons of course they wanted to come here to this country, [it] was the only hope that many of those people had. They were both illiterate. There was no public education in Italy at that time. And what had happened, my father was in the Italian army during World War I and upon his being discharged from the Italian Army he then about a year later wanted to come here to the United States. The family had, before World War I, actually lived in Bahia Blanca, Argentina for five years, where two of my sisters were born but-- CAMPBELL: What was the reason for going to Argentina? ALAIMO: Same reason for coming here, and they actually went back to Italy just for a visit when World War I broke out and he was conscripted. So they never returned to South America. CAMPBELL: When you and your family came to the United States when you were two years old, did you come through Ellis Island? ALAIMO: We did. As a matter of fact some time ago my wife got on the internet and was able to find the actual ship documents that contained the names of our family coming through Ellis Island. CAMPBELL: How about that. How about that. Then you settled in Jamestown New York? ALAIMO: We did. CAMPBELL: And that is in upstate New York correct? ALAIMO: Well it' ; s in southwestern New York, south of Buffalo. CAMPBELL: What did your mother and father do there? ALAIMO: Well, my father was just a laborer he was bricklayer principally. And my mother was a housewife. Now my mother was actually illiterate throughout her life. Whereas my dad did teach himself how to read and write when he was down in South America, but that was their status. CAMPBELL: I have heard you say in other interviews, that while your mother was illiterate she was an amazing woman. ALAIMO: She was a brilliant woman, she really was. CAMPBELL: It just goes to show you don' ; t have to have education to be brilliant. ALAIMO: No you do not, and she always had the thirst to see that her children got educated. That was one of the main things in her life that she always impressed us with. CAMPBELL: How many brothers and sisters did you have? ALAIMO: We were seven altogether. There were four girls and three boys CAMPBELL: And everybody came to Jamestown? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: And what was it like growing up in Jamestown. You had come from Italy so I guess you learned the English language. ALAIMO: Yes, you know, children learn a language, a foreign language, much more easily than adults do, but I don' ; t ever remember not knowing how to speak English. CAMPBELL: How about at home did your parents learn English? Or did you speak Italian? ALAIMO: No, they did not. They spoke broken English. But we spoke in Italian around the home. We went to an Italian Methodist Church where the sermons were in Italian. Of course my folks were very religious people and as a result we read a lot of Bible. Reading the Bible in Italian all of us kids, generally learned formal Italian. Other than that most Italians speak in dialect and dialects are very different. CAMPBELL: Now you said you went to a Methodist Church. I had probably made the assumption you were Catholic coming from-- ALAIMO: Well, initially we were. My parents became converted when I was about 8 years old and after that they became very devout Methodists. CAMPBELL: What were you interested in growing up? What was you avocation or interest? ALAIMO: Well, just like any other kid. We went out and played things of that nature. CAMPBELL: Well, you became a boxer at one point didn' ; t you? ALAIMO: Not when I was--well when I was a kid you know you had your usual fisticuffs with your playmates, but I really didn' ; t get into boxing until I went to college. CAMPBELL: Is that right? ALAIMO: Won the golden gloves at that time. They had those tournaments every year. CAMPBELL: How much did you weigh then? ALAIMO: 147. CAMPBELL: 147. (laughter) So did you box throughout your time in college? ALAIMO: Well, yes, but it was sporadic. You had the tournaments once a year, that' ; s the only time you ever got out there and really boxed. CAMPBELL: You never viewed yourself as making a living boxing. ALAIMO: Oh no, no no. CAMPBELL: What year did you graduate from high school? ALAIMO: 1937. CAMPBELL: 1937. And then you went and enrolled in Ohio Northern University. How did that come about? ALAIMO: My brother had gone there before me. He was a ministerial student and it was a Methodist college, Ohio Northern was. And the year he graduated I came on. He went on to North Western to do graduate work, and I succeeded him there. CAMPBELL: How were you able to afford to go college? ALAIMO: I was a barber. CAMPBELL: A barber? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: They tempt you to become a barber? ALAIMO: Well, my brother induced me to do that when he said if you really want to go to college you better learn how to cut hair. He had been a barber there, and he had established a shop in the college town that I just took over when I came on, but really-- CAMPBELL: That was the way you paid for college? ALAIMO: It was. And I was really more affluent then most kids that were--that was the depression year, when none of the kids had much money, but CAMPBELL: That didn' ; t tempt you then to become a barber as a career? ALAIMO: Oh no, not really, no. CAMPBELL: Was it while you were in college that you first became interested in becoming a lawyer? ALAIMO: Yes sir. That really was prompted by the fact that I could take all my classes in the morning, and therefore have my shop opened in the afternoon, whereas in the other schools you had classes in the afternoon, so that was sort of a reason why I went into law school. CAMPBELL: Did you have a good college experience at Ohio Northern? ALAIMO: Yes. Oh yes. I grew up there. See I was seventeen when I went there that' ; s where I grew up. CAMPBELL: Did you make good grades? ALAIMO: No, not really. I made mediocre. CAMPBELL: What degree did you get? ALAIMO: Bachelor of Arts. CAMPBELL: That was in what year? ALAIMO: 1940. CAMPBELL: 1940. So World War II was under way, but the U.S. had not joined the war. ALAIMO: Not yet, no, but we had all registered for the draft if you remember. CAMPBELL: Right. ALAIMO: Well, you wouldn' ; t remember. CAMPBELL: Well, I was born in 1942, so that was a couple of years before then. Now when you graduated from college though you almost immediately voluntarily enlisted in the military-- ALAIMO: No, no I did not. I actually went to work for a defense manufacturer in Detroit where I had a sister living. I didn' ; t enlist in the Air Corps. until the day after Pearl Harbor, when I drove up from Detroit to South Ridge Field, and enlisted in the Air Corps. CAMPBELL: So prior to Pearl Harbor did you have any intent of enlisting? ALAIMO: No, not really. CAMPBELL: It was caused by Pearl Harbor? ALAIMO: Yes, yes. CAMPBELL: And you enlisted in the Army Air Corps. What made you want to be a pilot? Had you had any experience in aviation? ALAIMO: None whatsoever. It was just the thrill of the anticipated excitement of being a pilot. CAMPBELL: At that time to qualify for that program you had to have a college degree? ALAIMO: Yes, you did. And pass a pretty stringent physical exam. CAMPBELL: So you went into training, I assume, cause you had never flown. ALAIMO: No never had. CAMPBELL: What kind of training did you get to equip you to fly bombing raids? ALAIMO: Well, we all had-- CAMPBELL: You didn' ; t bomb places during training I am assuming. ALAIMO: Not really. Well, except when we were down in Tampa, Florida we tried to bomb Gandy Bridge by dropping a crate full of oranges. CAMPBELL: How long did your training take? ALAIMO: Nine months. CAMPBELL: Nine months. And did you feel at the end of that that you were-- ALAIMO: Qualified? CAMPBELL: Yes. ALAIMO: Not to fly a B-26. CAMPBELL: Did you train in an open cockpit or a closed cockpit? ALAIMO: Well, both, but the open cockpit was the primary trainer and the intermediate trainer, then the advanced training was the so called AT-6 which had a canopy. And then went to Tampa, FL in B-26' ; s and was checked out as a first pilot after ten hours. So you can imagine what my proficiency was with a B-26. CAMPBELL: Then I assume after you completed your training you were assigned to a theatre of the war, European theater in this case. ALAIMO: Yes, Yes, Yes. CAMPBELL: How did you get to Europe, did you go on a ship or-- ALAIMO: No, we flew over. And as I have often said it would have been a tour director' ; s dream, the trip that we took overseas, because we were originally scheduled to go to Puerto Rico, but ran through a cold front, terrible front, ran out of gas, and stopped in San Domingo for a week, because they had to lengthen the runway for our ships. CAMPBELL: When you say ships you are talking about your aircraft? ALAIMO: Yes, B-26. Then went to Borinquen Field in Puerto Rico, from there to Trinidad, then to Guyana, as it is pronounced now, it was Guiana then, British Guiana, then down to Belém then to Brazil. That' ; s where we had heard about this very famous place called Madame ZaZa' ; s, which was as you can imagine a bordello. (laughter) And someone asked me what was it like I said, " ; The line was too long." ; (laughter) From there we went to Natal which was on the western point--the eastern point rather of Brazil from there to [unintelligible] Island and then to Accra off the coast of Africa. Then from there [we went] to Monrovia, and then Gambia. Then we were supposed to go to Dakar but the Germans were still there, so then we flew across the Sahara to Marrakesh, and that was a beautiful city. And [we] were there three weeks staying at, if you have ever been there, the Mamounia Hotel which is a five star hotel now, just a magnificent place then from there a place now called Kenitra then to England. CAMPBELL: My goodness how long did this trip take? ALAIMO: A month CAMPBELL: A month. I can see now why you called it a tour operators dream. ALAIMO: Oh yes, it was magnificent really. Hate to pay for it in today' ; s dollars. CAMPBELL: So you' ; re in England at this point did you have an appreciation of the danger and risk of these bombing raids? ALAIMO: No, not really. You know twenty years old, twenty-one years old. No, you didn' ; t. [You] didn' ; t have an appreciation. Of course, we were told we were actually going to embark on a novel method of flying that was flying as low as you could. CAMPBELL: That was to avoid the radar? ALAIMO: To avoid the radar, and then the accuracy in bombing. CAMPBELL: When you say low how low are you talking about? ALAIMO: I am talking about as low as you can get. CAMPBELL: Like a hundred feet? ALAIMO: Oh less than that. CAMPBELL: Oh my goodness. ALAIMO: In fact, I used to say of course not entirely accurately, that you could see the wake of the airplane ahead of you flying across the ocean at that time. CAMPBELL: You could only, I assume, fly in clear weather then. ALAIMO: Oh yes. CAMPBELL: You couldn' ; t fly when it was cloudy for example or rainy. ALAIMO: Sure you could. CAMPBELL: That low? ALAIMO: Sure. CAMPBELL: Now I think it was in May, that the mission you were on-- ALAIMO: Yes, May 17th CAMPBELL: And that was in forty-- ALAIMO: Three CAMPBELL: ' ; 43 okay. And tell us what happened. Just kinda begin [with]: what you were bombing, what the target was, and how it happened and how you wound up in the North Sea. ALAIMO: This is one group and as it turned out there were only eleven ships and normally there would have been twelve planes in the group. And we were the only ones at that time, immediate bombers, in England that were operational. And as we flew over there, I was tailing Charlie and my flight, we were down as low as we can get. About halfway across, one of the pilots had some engine problems. He pulled up to a thousand feet and we later realized that when he did that, their radar caught us. Because when we hit the coast, we went through a hail of small fire machine guns, small cannons. CAMPBELL: Now this was the coast of what? What were you going on? ALAIMO: Coast of Holland. We were supposed to bomb a power plant in Holland, Ijmuiden was the name of the town, south of Amsterdam. Well, we kinda missed the point we were supposed to go in at because we hit an unexpected crosswind that pushed us south and we ran around some fifteen or twenty minutes trying to get back on course and we-- CAMPBELL: Were you being shot at all this time? ALAIMO: Oh yes, all the time, just shot at. All the ships were lost. Every one of them was shot down. I saw our squadron commander, group commander as a matter of fact, hit and his ship flipped over on its side. He went into the one of the canals. I thought for sure they would all be dead, but when I got to the hospital, he was in the hospital and had only a couple of broken ribs, and was just fantastic the things that happened that you couldn' ; t possibly explain logically. We got hit, and one engine was on fire. Then we got to the bombing target and dropped our bombs. One of the problems was that they had decided we' ; d use thirty minute delay bombs to enable the Dutch to get away from the area not be there. CAMPBELL: You mean once you dropped the bomb it hit the ground it would be thirty minutes before it exploded? ALAIMO: Yes, thirty minutes before it exploded. Because I heard the bombs exploding when I was out there in the water, out in the North Sea. Anyhow after we crossed, we got hit again and the other engine went on fire. We realized we were going to have to ditch, and we did. We were about five miles off the coast and we ditched. CAMPBELL: Had you been shot at this point? ALAIMO: Oh yes, I was shot someplace when we were over the coast, shot through the leg and through the hip. I had made up my mind then that if I ever went back I was going to have some armor plate on my seat because I got a couple of slugs in my hip. CAMPBELL: You had one engine on fire. ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: And then what did you do then? ALAIMO: Feathered that engine, then a short time later the other engine was on fire. So we realized then we were going to have to ditch and then went in, at about two hundred miles per hour, went into the ocean. And I had just seconds before that flipped open the overhead hatches, over the pilot and co-pilot compartment, and shortly before I had pulled a fire extinguisher cable which was behind my seat and required me to unfasten my seatbelt to get to pull the cable. I never refastened my safety belt that as I have said before really saved my life because somehow I got flipped through the overhead hatch. I don' ; t really know how I got out to tell you the truth, all I remember is when I came too, I was under water with my foot caught on something. I finally kicked loose and came up and inflated my " ; Mae West." ; CAMPBELL: Did you suffer more injuries when the plane hit the sea? ALAIMO: Yeah, I had a broken nose, broken collarbone, and I had some scrapes, but no serious injuries. CAMPBELL: So you had been shot through the hip, broke a nose and a collarbone. ALAIMO: And shot in the leg. CAMPBELL: And you are in the North Sea. ALAIMO: Right. Very cold. CAMPBELL: Were all the other members of the crew so far as you know still alive when it was ditched in the sea? ALAIMO: Yes. They were, but they obviously drowned. CAMPBELL: So you were the only one who was able to get out? ALAIMO: Yes, again I don' ; t know how I got out. CAMPBELL: So what happened after you got out? It was quite cold I assume. ALAIMO: I was quite cold. We had escape kits and in the escape kits there was a syringe with morphine. I gave myself that shot and it really helped when I was out there in the North Sea bobbing around. On our " ; Mae West" ; we had police whistles. CAMPBELL: Just for people who will see this in the future what is a " ; Mae West" ; ? ALAIMO: " ; Mae West" ; was a life preserver you wore around your neck and you fastened around you waste. And it had a little cylinder that you could pull the plunger and inflate it, and it was a life preserver, and that is what kept me up, during that period of time. I could see German patrol boats out in the distance, and of course I blew the devil out of that whistle wanting to be picked up. CAMPBELL: How long do you think you could have survived in that water? ALAIMO: No more than three or four hours, if that long. CAMPBELL: So you wanted to be captured? ALAIMO: Very much so. CAMPBELL: If it were the Germans you wanted to be captured? ALAIMO: Yeah anybody, [it] could have been anybody. CAMPBELL: Once you were picked up by the German patrol boat what happened then? ALAIMO: They were very good to me. They laid me out on deck, cut away my trousers gave me first aid, gave me a shot of brandy, gave me the general admonition that all POW' ; s got. That for you the war is over which was true. CAMPBELL: Did the Germans speak English? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: Did you speak German at that time? ALAIMO: No not at all. No. CAMPBELL: And then you were taken to a hospital. ALAIMO: A hospital in Amsterdam, Amsterdam General Hospital, and we were all in the survivors there were one third who survived which is just absolutely miraculous. CAMPBELL: You mean of your group? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: Nobody in your plane survived, but one third of your total group-- ALAIMO: No, other than I. In the hospital room there were eight or ten of us ten as matter of fact in the room. We were there about a week. We received the same treatment, medical treatment that injured Luftwaffe men soldiers had received. CAMPBELL: Were these German doctors? ALAIMO: Yes. Yes they were. Then we were shipped from there to Frankfurt am Main. And I was taken to a hospital outside of Frankfort which I thought was a mental institution because the walls were all padded with leather, but it wasn' ; t. And I was there for some three weeks, where and when I was interrogated by the Germans. CAMPBELL: Did you undergo any rough interrogation? ALAIMO: Not really, no. [It was] repetitious and that sort of thing, but nothing other than that. CAMPBELL: In the quality of the medical care you received you said that was basically the same as a German wounded soldier would have received? ALAIMO: Yes, yes. CAMPBELL: And then was that when you were then assigned a prisoner of war camp? ALAIMO: Well, we were sent to a dispersal camp called Dulag Luft, a very famous place where all Air Force POW' ; s went through. Were there three of four days and then assigned to Stalag Luft III. CAMPBELL: We are going to discuss some of the very interesting experiences that you had while you were in the camps, but how many different prisoner of war camps were you in during your incarceration? ALAIMO: Two. Well, Dulag Luft was really not a German camp, Stalag Luft III and Moosburg. CAMPBELL: Where was the first of these located? ALAIMO: It was located in what is now Poland, southeast of Berlin about ninety miles, near Oberursel. CAMPBELL: The second one was near Munich. Correct? ALAIMO: Yes. Yes. CAMPBELL: What level of knowledge did you have about how the war was progressing, did you get current news? ALAIMO: We did. Well we had German newspapers, we had the German radio broadcast, and then, like I mentioned to you earlier, we had some secret BBC reports. We had hidden radios. I didn' ; t even know where it was it was a very secret thing. Everyday we would have a one of the prisoners we called " ; Kriegies" ; would come around to each block and report the daily news that came over BBC. So we knew what was going on. CAMPBELL: So for example when D-Day occurred, you knew that? ALAIMO: Oh yes, we did. CAMPBELL: What information was given to your parents about where you were? What did they know? ALAIMO: Well, they didn' ; t get information about where I was for about 6 months. CAMPBELL: Did they just think you were missing in action? ALAIMO: Well, they thought I was really originally reported dead in action, and then about six months later they got the information I was a POW. CAMPBELL: There was a film called the Great Escape, and you had a role in what became the Great Escape. Tell us about that, how that happened. ALAIMO: Very short very short role. When I first was interned there at Stalag Luft III, I was in what was called the British compound. The British of course had been there since 1939 you know. CAMPBELL: Were these all pilots now? ALAIMO: All Air Crew. CAMPBELL: Oh all Air Crew. ALAIMO: Yes, bombardiers, navigators and so on. We were assigned this one compound in Stalag Luft III they at that time had three tunnels going. They were very escape conscious, and of course, like I said, had been there quite a while. They were very good on intelligence, much better than the Americans were as far as intelligence was concerned. The tunnels were called Tom, Dick, and Harry. [Both chuckle] One of them was discovered, and the other one was just saved as place to dispose of the sand, because the sand down thirty feet deep was of a different color from the one up on top, so that they had to find a place to disperse the sand so they wouldn' ; t be detected. CAMPBELL: How could you build a tunnel in a prison camp without the Germans knowing about it? ALAIMO: Listen, it just like the inmates here they are always smarter than the people that are holding them. [Both chuckle] And we were we used to have periodic checks by the Gestapo' ; s, and we stole more stuff from them then they got from us. They were able to do it. They had a lot of experience. They had an elaborate system of what we called " ; stooging" ; so we knew where every German in that compound was. Whenever one of their ferrets, we called them, got close to where the digging was taking place the signal would go down stop everything and they did. CAMPBELL: But for example, did you just dig a hole in the middle of the-- ALAIMO: No they dug--they were very ingenious on traps. What they did is each room had a little concrete base where the stove was. They moved aside this concrete base and dug the entry down in to the tunnel or the shaft there, because it went down thirty feet so as not to have any digging detected by the seismographs, which the Germans had in all the surrounding fences. CAMPBELL: So the idea was to dig down thirty feet then dig out? ALAIMO: Right. Then go straight out and the distance out was about three-hundred and fifty feet. As I said the British were ingenious. They stole some cable and they had this tunnel wired with electricity. Because before they did that all you had were little lamps made out of the margarine that we got, and a piece of cloth to act as a wick. They had a sort of track to put little carts that would haul the sand back. They had, the let me explain this to you, being sand you had to shore it up, and it was solidly shored by what we had, bed boards. All the bunks had bed boards of boards one by six boards and one by four boards exactly twenty eight inches long. They were notched at the end and fit together so that you had a solid tunnel. CAMPBELL: What would the German guards say when they came down and a bed board was missing? ALAIMO: Oh well, they didn' ; t count the bed boards, one thing they didn' ; t do. But what really happened towards the end, a lot of the guys could barely stay afloat because they had to give up so many of their bed boards, that their mattresses were just about to sink down. CAMPBELL: Did you have any misgivings about getting involved in this? When you-- ALAIMO: None whatever. No I wanted to. CAMPBELL: Weren' ; t you afraid that if you were detected you would be executed? ALAIMO: No not really. No one had been executed up until that point. CAMPBELL: What was your role? What did you do in connection with what became the Great Escape? ALAIMO: Well, they had to have an air system in the tunnel, which was composed of a pipe or tube, fabricated by putting tin cans together, empty tin cans, and soldered. The corned beef cans all had some solder on them that they were able to use, and to it was attached a pump made out of tired sack and a hoop made out of wire to give it an accordion effect back and forth. The guy that ran the pump would sit there like in a rowing machine and pump this thing back and forth and that is what I did. CAMPBELL: That' ; s what the air down so they could breathe? ALAIMO: Right, yes. Down at the face of the tunnel we had four hour stints you would sit there and pump that thing back and forth. That' ; s what I did. CAMPBELL: The Germans never detected any of this? ALAIMO: No, no. Not in that tunnel they didn' ; t. CAMPBELL: So did you once the tunnels-- ALAIMO: I was there only about four months because then they moved us out to a new compound that they had built for the Americans. And the tunnel was finally broken about ten months after that. CAMPBELL: Was the tunnel big enough for people who were digging it turn around? ALAIMO: Yes they had two turn around places called Piccadilly Circus and Leicester Square. There you could turn around, otherwise you see you had twenty eight inches square, less the two or three inches for the interlocking, and you just couldn' ; t turn around. CAMPBELL: When the tunnels were used for the escape you were not there then you had already been transferred out? ALAIMO: No, Yeah we were ten months after that. CAMPBELL: That turned out to be lucky did it? ALAIMO: Well it did. Of course we all felt so unlucky that when we knew it was going to begin broken. CAMPBELL: What happened to the people who did it? How many people escaped and what happened to them? ALAIMO: About seventy-five escaped. They recaptured about fifty of them. Well, the recaptured all of them except for three who got away. Two were Norwegian and one was Dutch who had been in the Royal Air Force who made it back. But other than that everybody else were caught. CAMPBELL: So none of the British really escaped? ALAIMO: No, No they did not. And fifty of them were shot on direct orders by Hitler. And as I mentioned to you earlier Garring, who was pretty jealous of the way the Air Force were treated, had tried to talk him out of that but was unable to do it. CAMPBELL: By the time that happened you were in this different facility. Did it have any impact on the way you were treated? ALAIMO: Yes, oh my yes. They came in the night that the escape occurred and with automatic rifles put us all out in the parade ground, or the ground where we had to go out everyday to be counted, and kept us out there all night. And it was cold let me tell you, at that time. They shorted us on rations, but not for long, not for long. CAMPBELL: Now after the people who escaped in the Great Escape experienced the fate they did that take away your desire to escape? ALAIMO: No. CAMPBELL: You still wanted too? ALAIMO: Sure. CAMPBELL: And you actually finally did escape didn' ; t you? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: Tell us how that happened? Now this was at a different facility, you had been transferred. ALAIMO: Yes, it was. Yes it was. In January ' ; 45 the Russians were close enough to where we could hear their artillery. So the Germans came in one night and said, " ; We are going to leave here in thirty minutes. Get your stuff together." ; We were all marched out of there and were marched for about sixty-five miles, straight miles, and that was terrible. That was the worst experience that I went through. CAMPBELL: Would you say it was very cold? ALAIMO: Oh my yes. You know you--I had often talked about scoffing at people who claimed that their socks froze to their feet, and boy did it happen to the soles of my shoes. CAMPBELL: How far did you have to march? ALAIMO: Sixty-five miles. CAMPBELL: Sixty-five miles during the night? ALAIMO: Yes, and day. You know you couldn' ; t march very far seven or eight miles at most. And then we were placed in box cars, and that wasn' ; t very happy either. Because we were so crowded you couldn' ; t lie down except in shifts. CAMPBELL: How long were you in the box car? ALAIMO: Three days. CAMPBELL: Three days? ALAIMO: And were taken down to a big camp near Munich, Moosburg. Where there were every name, shape, and race of person was a prisoner of war there. The very first day we were put in delousing compounds. You know we' ; d not had any showers of any kind during the time we were there in Stalag Luft III. But there, they put us in there where there were hot showers to get rid of the lice we had. Well, there was only a single fence surrounding this particular compound. And so two other guys and myself decided we would try to get out. I cut the wire and we got a couple of German speaking prisoners to divert the guards and we got out. CAMPBELL: Were the other two people that were in this with you, were they Americans? ALAIMO: Oh yes. Sure. One was from Philadelphia and another from Florida. Anyhow we got out and tried to walk during the night, and it was just very difficult. No lights of any kind, you know, at that time there was complete blackout. And then we decided we would do it in the day time, going south toward Munich. CAMPBELL: You got out, then got back in at night? ALAIMO: No, oh no. We were out walking and we slept in what turned out to be a damn hog barn. [Both chuckle] We couldn' ; t tell what it was, but we crossed this field got there and spent the one night there. Then the next day as we were walking through a small town a German private stopped and asked who we were and asked to see our papers, and of course we had no papers. I tried to tell him we were French workers, I could speak French. And he would have none of it, but he put us in this little country jug that had about seven or eight locks on it. Well the next morning, when he came to take us back to camp, as he was locking these locks and one of the other guys said, " ; Let' ; s go" ; , and we did, we ran. I was dumb enough of course, I should have stayed there let the other two go off where he would not be able to go after everybody. But he went on out, and what was kinda amusing after is that, I was running away from him, I was going around a curve and my shoulder hit a telephone pole, and knocked me down. I thought he had shot me. He came up and put the pistol in my face and said, " ; Where are your buddies?" ; I said, " ; I don' ; t know." ; He went in and got a riffle, and got them out there in the field, and we were taken back to Moosburg. CAMPBELL: So this is two escape attempts that you' ; ve been involved in that didn' ; t turn out too good? ALAIMO: No they did not. CAMPBELL: Did that convince you that maybe you shouldn' ; t try it? ALAIMO: No not really. Not really. You knew you had a distorted view of things. You had a distorted view of how the war was really going because you know not long before that they had had the Bastogne thing where--we were in the cooler at that time. I was, and the German guard came in and said we' ; ve captured twenty-thousand prisoners were going toward Antwerp, and we are going to push the allies into the sea and then take care of the Russians. He really believed it. Of course we didn' ; t know any better, but you had a real distorted view of what was happening. CAMPBELL: So you tried another escape? ALAIMO: Well, no. We had tried another escape from Stalag Luft III, Floridian Ace Lamburg and I. Around the camp were two fourteen foot high fences. And there was barber wire entangled between them. There were gates of course where the horse drawn wagons would bring the provisions into the camp. And they had closed one of these gates and I had noticed that there were ruts that were pretty deep under the gate and they had not been filled or leveled off. And I thought we could get under those gates and get out. Of course, you couldn' ; t escape at that time without getting the approval of the senior American officer, who happened to be Charles Goodrich, a Colonel from Augusta, believe it or not, wonderful man. But anyhow, we got clearance on it. We had everything timed and it was in January and they were going to have a big snow fight outside during the PEL time, the time they counted everybody. CAMPBELL: This would have been January ' ; 44? Or ' ; 45? ALAIMO: No it wouldn' ; t have been ' ; 45, it would have been ' ; 44. It was early on. Well, we got the on signal, as it turned out it was wrong. He had given us the wrong signal it was a Lieutenant Colonel. I jumped--there was a warning fence that was about three feet high that was about thirty feet from the main fence and I vaulted that. And I was actually not supposed to do that unless there was another Lieutenant Colonel who, the minute before we jumped the fence, would give us a signal about if it was on or not. Well, the thing was off because there had been a lot German soldiers in the auf lager and but he gave--he was not at the place where he was supposed to be. So I just jumped the fence and went at it. Well, the thing had been called off, and as I tried to crawl under that gate it was not quite as wide an aperture as I thought it had been, so I jiggled the fence you know. We were right at the guard house which is up about 14 feet, and the guard that was up there felt the tremor, and turned around and saw me down there and he grabbed his machine gun and started to fire, but it didn' ; t for some reason or another it was jammed. CAMPBELL: You were very lucky at that point. ALAIMO: (laughter) Boy and how, and how. While we were taken--you went to what they called a cooler for twenty-one days on bread and water. CAMPBELL: Then you were put back in the population? ALAIMO: Yeah, sure. CAMPBELL: So you' ; ve had three attempts now that didn' ; t turn out well? ALAIMO: Yes, yes. CAMPBELL: But you did another one? ALAIMO: Well, the one that finally succeeded. (laughter) CAMPBELL: Tell us about that one. What happened then? ALAIMO: Well at that time, as I mentioned to you earlier, officers couldn' ; t work under the Geneva Convention, but the enlisted men could. Every morning, about five o' ; clock, the Germans would take the enlisted men and put them in box cars and take them all down to Munich to clean rubble because it was bombed everyday at that time. About that time, a group of enlisted men came into our compound and I induced one of the guys to switch with me. CAMPBELL: You were switching for an enlisted man' ; s dog tags. ALAIMO: So he would come on in as an officer, which he thought would be so much better, which it really wasn' ; t. But we switched, and the next morning I went out on one of these working parties and what was unusual about it is that right at the very beginning it was dark, it was around five o' ; clock in the morning, we were walking to the rail yard and the Germans started to spot check everybody. And fortunately the guy who was in our line began searching the guy ahead of me, and while he was searching him I got around and went on down to the boxcar. Unfortunately at that time there was another guard who was doing some searching and again I didn' ; t know what to do about whether to wait and try to sweat it out toward the end when he might give it up CAMPBELL: Why did you not want to be searched? ALAIMO: I had a horde of chocolate bars from the Red Cross parcels and things of that nature. CAMPBELL: That was considered to be contraband? ALAIMO: Oh yes, well, yes. Not only that, but the jig would have been up. The only reason I had had that was because I was trying to escape. He was again searching the guy ahead of me, and I was able to throw my knapsack where I had the stuff in the corner of the boxcar and he didn' ; t see it, so we got by it and we got into Munich that morning. CAMPBELL: In other words as you were leaving to go on this work detail you had in mind escaping that day? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: That was what you were gonna try to do? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: I am sorry go ahead. ALAIMO: And did. When we got to Munich we were taken to an army school and there was an air raid. We went down in the basement. When we got down there I was able to get away from the group and go into a room that had--the windows had all been shattered and knocked out and so on and pretty much disarrayed. [I] went in there and took off my G.I. clothes which I had on over these civilian clothes. CAMPBELL: So you had civilian clothes under your G.I. clothes? ALAIMO: Sure, yes worn civilian clothes. [I] started to crawl out the window which was about eye level. As I did the German Sergeant who was in charge of our detail was walking up the walk, looking right at where I was, but somehow he didn' ; t see me. I' ; ll never understand that because he was looking right at me and I thought I could see his eyes, but anyhow he didn' ; t notice me. I crawled out and walked on down Route Number two. CAMPBELL: So you are out in the street in Germany but you don' ; t have any papers? ALAIMO: No, none. CAMPBELL: Were you able to walk down the street without being checked? ALAIMO: Yes, you were. One of the difficulties was not turning around to see if anyone was following you. But at any rate, I knew the approximate location of what they called a French Commando camps. They were impressed Frenchmen who were operating the big state farms that the Germans had. And it was in a small town called Grünwald, not far south of Munich. And so I did go there, and sure enough they put me up for the night. CAMPBELL: How did you know where that place was? ALAIMO: Well, I didn' ; t I knew it was south of town someplace. I roamed around and was able to see this big barbed wire fences around the place. CAMPBELL: Did they know you were an American G.I.? ALAIMO: I told them. I told them who I was and they said sure they' ; d put me up for the night. In fact, what was really hilarious, we played bridge and for the only time in my life I made a grand slam double and redoubled and no trump. CAMPBELL: You remember that? (laughter) ALAIMO: Boy do I, but it is just strange, but anyhow. They then gave me directions to the next camp, farther south, and gave me some foods, [and] some bread. And so the next day I tramped on down to this next town and the directions to it were rather bizarre. They said you' ; ll go into this town at Traubing and go to the south end of town. There will be a fork in the road and at one of the roads of the fork will be a farmhouse, and there will be a Frenchman pitching hay in the farmyard. Well you know, I thought that was weird. But anyhow I did just that, sure enough there was a Frenchman, you could spot them they had on berets, who was pitching hay on a wagon. He took me to the camp and I spent the night there. Then they gave me directions to the next one. CAMPBELL: So you just went from these camps through--you' ; re still in Germany now? ALAIMO: Yes, oh yes. Then [I] went to Starnberg which was much larger city. There the barracks chief, a Frenchman, discussed where I should try to go. I thought I would go into Switzerland from Germany. He said, " ; No, there would be too many guards on the Swiss border." ; Since I was fluent in Italian he said, " ; Your best bet is to go into Italy." ; CAMPBELL: Of course Italy was on the side with Germany? ALAIMO: At that time sure. He bought me a rail ticket in down at Garmisch-Partenkirchen and then to Innsbruck. That night he took me to the station and slipped the ticket to me in my hand. And as I went to board the train, the Gestapo was checking papers. There was an iron pipe fence that separated us from where the rail car was. It was dark of course again. I vaulted that fence and the Gestapo didn' ; t see me do it and got on the train. CAMPBELL: Had you been caught there. You would have-- ALAIMO: Yes, the jig would have been up. CAMPBELL: Would they have executed you? ALAIMO: Particularly the Gestapo. Well, I don' ; t know you never know during war you didn' ; t know what these guys would do. CAMPBELL: So now you are making your way through Italy? ALAIMO: Well, no I was making my way through Germany. CAMPBELL: You' ; re not into Italy yet? ALAIMO: No, no I hadn' ; t got into Innsbruck yet. Went to Innsbruck then went through the Brenner Pass into Italy and I was lucky there too. When we got to the passage itself everybody disembarked. And I noticed that there were two groups of Italians who were being taken back as German prisoners of war actually by two guards. There were thirty-five of them, one group eighteen, and the other one seventeen. Well, I sort of got around the one that had seventeen and eventually I guess the guard assumed the guard had the eighteen because he never said anything about my being there. Anyhow, we went on down to and stopped in Bolzano and there got the first real warm meal I' ; d had in a long time of good spaghetti. Believe it or not, these Italian women had cooked lunch for-- CAMPBELL: That was a happy occasion. ALAIMO: Oh boy wasn' ; t it though. CAMPBELL: During the time you were going through Italy I read somewhere you had an interesting experience. You went to an opera? ALAIMO: Oh yes, in Milan. CAMPBELL: How did that happen? ALAIMO: Well, I got to Milan on trucks because, by that time, all rail transport was just nonexistent because the American Air Force would bomb it everyday. And again I lucked out and as I have often said, the law of averages must have been suspended during that day because I had so many lucky breaks. But anyhow, I was able to get through a search there in Milan and in Innsbruck I had talked to an Italian who gave me some information about partisans in Milan. CAMPBELL: When you say partisans, [you mean] somebody who would help people who were escaping? ALAIMO: Yes, right. They were very strong groups of partisans in northern Italy at that time. CAMPBELL: The Italians and the Germans were not very close anyways. ALAIMO: No, no, no the Italians hated the Germans. They just always have. But in any event they gave me an address and I went to that address, and as it turned out it was a pastry shop. Can you imagine that for a hungry prisoner? Anyhow, I went to the proprietor and asked him if he knew who that particular man was. He said, " ; Yes I know him. I' ; ll go get him." ; He went and came back and said, " ; He is gone. He' ; s not here. What can I do for you?" ; So I decided then I would tell him. As it turned out he was a Sicilian, I said, " ; If you can' ; t help me let me go." ; And he said, " ; No I can help you." ; Well, he put me in an apartment got me a new set of clothes, gave me money where I could eat everyday. In a restaurant believe it or not, at least the evening meal in the day I would go to his pastry shop and eat me some cookies. Anyhow after I was there a couple of weeks I said to him, " ; Can you get me into Switzerland?" ; and he said yeah. CAMPBELL: Now did you in --You were going to tell me about the opera you went to and how did that happen? ALAIMO: Well, before that, well, he took us all to the opera some friends as well as myself to the opera in Milan and was not in La Scala because it had been damaged, but there was another opera house there. And as luck would have it, I sat next to a German SS Colonel. (Both laugh) Fortunately he had his girlfriend with him, and he was more interested in the girlfriend than anything else. It was a The Barber of Seville believe it or not. CAMPBELL: So you eventually got into Switzerland and Switzerland was neutral right? ALAIMO: Right. The experience I had there, when I turned myself in to the cops and during interrogation, they finally said, " ; You are not an American you' ; re Italian." ; I had Italian papers with me at the time, which I thought I' ; d keep as a souvenir, which was dumb. But anyhow, I really blew up and fortunately a Swiss major came in and he laughed at me and said, " ; We' ; ll send you to Geneva they' ; ll know who you are." ; Sure enough the next day a Swiss private took me to the station and we went to Geneva. CAMPBELL: How did your parents find out you had escaped and were no longer a prisoner of war? ALAIMO: I wrote them a V-mail from Paris. CAMPBELL: That' ; s the first time they knew you were out? ALAIMO: Yes, yes. CAMPBELL: After the war you came back and got married to a young lady you had met in college. You wound up in Atlanta. How did you happen to wind up in Atlanta? ALAIMO: Yes. A professor of mine in undergraduate school was a graduate of Emory and he had suggested that I come down here and that' ; s what I did. CAMPBELL: Had you ever come to Georgia before? ALAIMO: Never had, well been through it during the war, but not to really come down here for any period of time. CAMPBELL: You had decided by then to go to law school? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: You came to Atlanta specifically to go to Emory Law School? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: Was that on the G.I. Bill? ALAIMO: Yes, yes. CAMPBELL: Did that pay all your expenses? ALAIMO: It did. CAMPBELL: How hard was it to get into Emory? ALAIMO: I walked up to the registrar' ; s desk and said I have got a degree from Ohio Northern University and I want to enroll into the law school and I signed up. CAMPBELL: You didn' ; t take any LSAT or anything like that? ALAIMO: Heavens no. (both laugh) CAMPBELL: So you were at Emory. How did you enjoy law school at Emory? ALAIMO: Oh very much so. You know I had one of the best classes that ever came out of Emory. CAMPBELL: Were there a lot of other G.I.' ; s there on the G.I. Bill? ALAIMO: Most of them, well, ninety percent of them were G.I.' ; s. CAMPBELL: You mean of the entire law school class? ALAIMO: Yes, at that time, in that class, yes. Elmo Holt, Louis Slayton, Earl Phillips CAMPBELL: These are all prominent judges, lawyers and a district attorney in Atlanta. ALAIMO: Yes, very much so. CAMPBELL: So you graduate from Emory Law School and then you went to practice with a well-known trial lawyer, Reuben Garland. How did you happen to go with Mr. Garland? ALAIMO: He was the only person who would hire me. (both laugh) I had tramped the streets of Atlanta for a month. CAMPBELL: Did you go to the big firms and try to get a job? ALAIMO: I did you know Smythe Gambrell said to me you' ; ve got a good record at Emory, but you don' ; t have the right background. And he was right. CAMPBELL: They weren' ; t looking for anyone born in Sicily, from Jamestown New York. ALAIMO: No, no. Not Smythe. CAMPBELL: Reuben Garland was of course a very well-known and successful trial lawyer who had somewhat controversial. ALAIMO: Flamboyant. CAMPBELL: Flamboyant. ALAIMO: And controversial. Yes, you' ; re right. CAMPBELL: And did you try cases with him while you were there? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: So you had an opportunity to observe him in action? ALAIMO: I did. And I was really lucky because I handled all the demurrer practice, and all the pleadings, and really got a good education that way that I otherwise wouldn' ; t have gotten if I had gone to a big firm. CAMPBELL: I' ; ve heard it said before by other lawyers that he was great at cross-examination. ALAIMO: Oh, the best. CAMPBELL: So you learned a lot of valuable skills? ALAIMO: I did, but you had to put them together with his personality in order to make them work. CAMPBELL: He was held in contempt of court by a lot of judges. ALAIMO: Oh yes. CAMPBELL: What was the reason for that? What would he do? ALAIMO: Well, he was a judge baiter. He would always walk almost right up to the jailhouse steps and then retreat and later come back again and he kept doing that and when a case would last three or four days. He finally got to where the jury thought that judge is biased. And he worked that to perfection. CAMPBELL: How well did he compensate you? ALAIMO: Reasonably well. Yeah. CAMPBELL: How many people were practicing? ALAIMO: Originally it was thirty-five dollars a week. CAMPBELL: That doesn' ; t sound like very good compensation now. ALAIMO: No it doesn' ; t. CAMPBELL: But back then it probably wasn' ; t that bad. ALAIMO: Well, it was the best you could get. It was less than the elevator operator made. CAMPBELL: How many lawyers did Mr. Garland have practicing with him? ALAIMO: One other besides myself. CAMPBELL: He has a son that is a very prominent Atlanta lawyer now, Edward Garland. I guess he was a young -- ALAIMO: He was just a little kid 7 or 8 years old. CAMPBELL: At that time, right. Did you ever have any second thoughts about practicing law in terms of if that was what you wanted to do? ALAIMO: Yes I did. Because the difficulty in really getting--and I realize that working there with Reub was not exactly the best place to be. My father-in-law of course had a big farm up in Ohio and he kept importuning us to come up there and we did then in 1951 we went up for two years. CAMPBELL: That was after you' ; d been practicing with Reuben how long? ALAIMO: Yes. A couple of years. Then one November I was picking corn in a snow storm, believe it or not, and the gathering chain on the corn picker broke and I had to get down fix it. Boy I froze and I decided I am going back to Atlanta and practice law. CAMPBELL: Practicing law looked better than farming didn' ; t it? ALAIMO: Sure did. CAMPBELL: So you came back to Atlanta? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: And did you go back with Mr. Garland? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: How long did you practice with him at that point? ALAIMO: About three years. CAMPBELL: Okay. And then you wound up in Brunswick. How did that happen? ALAIMO: Yes. Well, we had been associated by Way Highsmith, who is a brilliant lawyer, had two double firsts from Oxford, and was Phi Beta from University of Georgia. [He was] just a brilliant guy, and had been a general counselor to Hercules. But he was slave to the bottle, finally got him and he came back to practice law. He had a very good damage suit down in Camden County and he asked Reub to come on down and help him try the case because Reub had a pretty good reputation for final argument. So I came on down to prepare the case and we got the biggest verdict ever rendered in Georgia as of that time. Then later on there was another case that he associated us in it was a real estate commission case where we got a verdict for $165,000. CAMPBELL: That was a lot of money back then wasn' ; t it? ALAIMO: Boy wasn' ; t it, as a real estate commission in particular. But anyhow, I had become disenchanted with Reub pretty badly because, you know, he was considered for Superior Court Judgeship by Marvin Griffin, there was one open in Atlanta. He had at that time had said, " ; Don' ; t think that because I am going to be judge that I am not going to get a share of the profits of this firm." ; Well, that was the end and by that time Way Highsmith had importuned me to come on down here and join him. My wife made the decision--(both laugh) CAMPBELL: Brunswick suited her better than Atlanta? ALAIMO: I can' ; t say that I was not disenchanted. There just was no activity down here. You know, the old proverbial saying about, the most activity you saw was the old hound dog moving from one side of the street to the other. (both laugh) CAMPBELL: Was Rueben upset when you decided to go? ALAIMO: Very much so. Very much so. And he bad mouthed me down here. CAMPBELL: So you came down here and did you have essentially the same kind of practice in Atlanta? ALAIMO: Yes, yes a general practice in a small town is about all you' ; d have. CAMPBELL: Is that representing both plaintiffs and defendants? ALAIMO: Yes, but mostly plaintiffs. CAMPBELL: Because you were very active in the plaintiffs bar. ALAIMO: I was. CAMPBELL: You were on the board of directors of the plaintiffs-- ALAIMO: Yes. I was one of the originators of the Georgia trial lawyers. CAMPBELL: Right. How would you compare the economics of the practice here compared to Atlanta? Did you do as well financially? ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: Better? ALAIMO: Yes. Oh yes better. CAMPBELL: And you practiced here for almost fifteen years before you were named judge and that was in December of 1971. ALAIMO: Right. CAMPBELL: When did you first become interested in becoming a judge and what accounted for that? ALAIMO: Oh, I had always been interested in been a judge from the day I was sworn in as a lawyer, but never expected that the chance would arise. And certainly I was always interested in this job, not the Superior Court. CAMPBELL: I know you had some communication with Senator Russell in ' ; 68-- ALAIMO: I did. CAMPBELL:--because I was working in his office at that time. Judge Alexander Lawrence was selected, there were two judges--at that time were there one or two judges? ALAIMO: One. There was only one that was Judge Scarlet. CAMPBELL: And Judge Scarlet retied or died. ALAIMO: He became senior CAMPBELL: He became senior and then Judge Lawrence got that. ALAIMO: Yeah, he got the appointment. CAMPBELL: Then did they create a new judge--the seat you got? ALAIMO: Yes they did when Nixon became president remember that first year they increased the number of judges in Atlanta as well as here. CAMPBELL: And you got the additional judge here? ALAIMO: Yes I did. CAMPBELL: Now the southern district where you had set for almost thirty-five years goes all the way from Brunswick to Augusta. ALAIMO: Augusta and McRae. CAMPBELL: McRae. How did you decide back when there was only two judges who would hear cases in which town? ALAIMO: Judge Lawrence did. Principally, he was chief. We had six divisions, statutory divisions that we had to hold court in. CAMPBELL: He was from Savannah? ALAIMO: Yes, he was from Savannah. He retained Savannah and Dublin and Swainsboro. I was required really to move to Augusta and I had Augusta, Waycross and Brunswick. CAMPBELL: And you had obviously in thirty-five years you had a lot of significant cases, but one of the most significant and most well-known is the Georgia Prison case Guthrie v. Evans. Tell us about that case? ALAIMO: Well, I mentioned to you earlier that one of the first things that Alex Lawrence did for me was to get me to sign an order assuming the all the cases coming out of the Reedsville prison, the Georgia state prison. CAMPBELL: That was Georgia' ; s maximum security prison at that time? ALAIMO: It was and still is. And it was of course in his division. CAMPBELL: He didn' ; t want those cases? ALAIMO: No he did not. (laughs) Because you know you really got a whole bunch of them (laughs). But he had the order ready for me to sign when I was on that bench. Went on right after I lowered my hand, he slipped that over and said sign this. Of course I' ; d have signed anything. CAMPBELL: He didn' ; t ask you if you wanted them? (laughter) ALAIMO: Oh no. I did and of course I inherited those cases. In ' ; 72 an action was filed not class at that time by some black prisoners claiming unhealthy conditions and things of that nature. Then the assistant Attorney General, who is Dorothy Beasley, later Judge up there, she came down and suggested that it be transferred into a class action, involving all inmate complaints. CAMPBELL: At Reedsville? ALAIMO: Yes, at Reedsville alone. And it was, and in the course of it we had some difficulty with a lot of the prisoners up there. They were they had a riot one time. So we decided that we had better have a monitor. A monitor was hired who came on down to observe the conditions, and make suggestions, and prepare orders for me to sign rectifying many of the conditions that were there at that time. It was sort of a monthly thing ; they would come in with some other order to be signed regarding the prison conditions. But with the state' ; s approval and also cooperation, we were able to develop probably the best in among the state prisons that was in existence at that time, to where Georgia came to the very forefront of prison administration after it had been considered only as the chain gang place. That was the reputation we had nationally before that. And we developed really an excellent system. CAMPBELL: The way that case was handled became a model for prison cases around the country. ALAIMO: It did, it did. What happened is what we accomplished there became adopted in all the other prisons in the state of Georgia. CAMPBELL: There is a case going on in Atlanta now involving the Fulton County Jail where a Federal Judge in Atlanta has appointed a monitor. ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: Very similar to what was done. ALAIMO: Yes. Yes. CAMPBELL: Now among the lawyers that were involved in the Guthrie case was Sanford Bishop, who is now Congressman -- ALAIMO: From Columbus, yes. CAMPBELL: Now a congressman. ALAIMO: Yes, and a very good one too. CAMPBELL: So there were some good lawyers in that case? ALAIMO: Oh, very good. Yes very good lawyers. CAMPBELL: Was that the most difficult case you had? ALAIMO: It was. It was. CAMPBELL: Another case you handled that got a lot of publicity in Atlanta, where I am from, involved a scandal at the Atlanta airport. And because the brother-in-law of one of the Federal judges was one of the people indicted, all the judges up there disqualified themselves and brought you in to try that case. ALAIMO: Yes. CAMPBELL: I heard some lawyers that participated in that case grumble about how hard you worked them. Tell us about that. ALAIMO: Well, it was a very controversial case as you can recall involving the Atlanta city administration of the airport. So I decided we' ; d sequester the jury. CAMPBELL: Now sequester the jury means that they stay in a hotel room throughout the whole trial? ALAIMO: That' ; s right. CAMPBELL: They can' ; t go home? ALAIMO: That' ; s right, they cannot go home or communicate with anyone at home. It is not a desirable thing if it for an extended period of time, but they had anticipated this case would take six weeks. Well, I knew that it wouldn' ; t because when you sequester a jury that is all they' ; ve got to do. You can spend a lot of time trying a case that otherwise would be frittered away. Well, the lawyers representing the defendants, Larry Thompson was one, Bobby Lee Cook was another, and Emmett Bondurant, they didn' ; t want the jury sequestered as defendants very seldom did. Well, in any event, we did sequester them and the case went on for three weeks. And we worked almost every Saturday and some Sunday' ; s at the request of the jury itself. CAMPBELL: That' ; s so they could get through quicker? ALAIMO: Sure. And as a result we did. CAMPBELL: The lawyers didn' ; t like that? ALAIMO: No they did not. It was hard on them. There is no question about that. You have to be a lawyer trying the case to realize how hard it is to be in there that long. They were pretty well exhausted. Nevertheless the jury got a more compact case. Really the evidence was all pretty cohesive and they didn' ; t have the family to discuss the case with by going home. As a result we usually got through the case a much more quickly than you ever could otherwise. CAMPBELL: How old were you when that case was being tried? ALAIMO: It was ' ; 95 was it? CAMPBELL: It was about ten years ago, so you were seventy-five years old at that time. ALAIMO: Yes, I was old. I' ; ve been old a long time. (laughter) CAMPBELL: I guess you figure if a seventy-five year old judge can go seven days a week, these younger lawyers ought to be able to -- ALAIMO: Well, I know but that was unfair really, I realize it. But nevertheless the important thing was to get the case tried. If a lawyer had to suffer a little bit he was being paid. CAMPBELL: Now aside from the prison reform case, and the Atlanta airport case, what would you say is the most interesting case you' ; ve had? Or can you say? You' ; ve had so many. ALAIMO: I really can' ; t. It' ; s all just one great big pile of cases. CAMPBELL: Do you enjoy trying civil cases more than criminal cases or-- ALAIMO: About the same. CAMPBELL: In terms of the mixture, what percentage--maybe now that you' ; re a senior judge it may be different--but if you' ; re an active district judge in this district what percentage would be criminal compared to civil? ALAIMO: 70:30 CAMPBELL: Criminal? ALAIMO: No, Civil. CAMPBELL: Civil. Okay. The criminal cases have some special requirements about how quickly you try them. ALAIMO: Oh yes, you have to try them pretty quickly, under the Speedy Trial Act. But in the early days involving Marijuana we had a lot of criminal cases. Now we very seldom have to try them, after the rule I initiated in this district. I require the U.S. Attorney to turn over his file before trial of the defendants so you don' ; t have any of these discovery disputes. CAMPBELL: Was it not required prior to that time? ALAIMO: No. It' ; s not required now, except under local rule. The fact of the matter is the defendants see what the government has, and realize the best thing for them to do is not go to trial but to work out a deal. So we very seldom try a criminal case anymore they are all pleas. CAMPBELL: What is the hardest part of being a federal judge? ALAIMO: Sentencing people to the penitentiary. Because then you act almost like God don' ; t you? It doesn' ; t get any better with age it really doesn' ; t. CAMPBELL: Now the Supreme Court of the United States has recently declared unconstitutional or invalidated the sentencing guidelines which were guidelines that federal judges had to follow in sentencing criminal defendants. What is your view about the impact of that decision? ALAIMO: Well, so far the cases indicate there is much impact in that most judges are using the guidelines in an advisory capacity, so that that question doesn' ; t arise much. I never had any problem with it in that I generally got an admission by the defendant who was pleading guilty about the other facts that the Booker case is all about. So it didn' ; t make any difference. In other words that obviated the necessity of having a jury pass on it. I never had any problem with them on that. CAMPBELL: What is the most enjoyable part of being a Federal judge? ALAIMO: What I enjoy more and it' ; s personal to me, is the ceremonies where we admit citizens. Because that is the way I became a citizen. CAMPBELL: You mean naturalized citizens that are-- ALAIMO: Sure. We have three or four times a year. I usually go down and speak to them individually and give them their certificate. CAMPBELL: You served as Chief Judge of the District court here for almost 15 years. ALAIMO: Right. CAMPBELL: You made a number of reforms that were very significant during your tenor as Chief Judge. Tell us about the most important of those. ALAIMO: The one that I just mentioned to you, the requirement that the U.S. Attorney turn over the file. The next thing was I did adopt a set of local rules which pretty much delineated practice in this court. CAMPBELL: Prior to that time the Southern district did not have any local rule? ALAIMO: None whatever, no. CAMPBELL: Because now all courts have-- ALAIMO: Judge Lawrence did not believe in them. CAMPBELL: All courts have local rule now don' ; t they? ALAIMO: Yes, as far as I know. Yes, all of them do. CAMPBELL: What were some of the, other than in criminal cases requiring the district attorney to turn over the file, what were some of the other things? ALAIMO: The pre-trial orders, the practice of pre-trial hearings to decide every potential problem that might arise during the trial. So that you make a record of it and obviate the necessity of argument during the trial of the case, which meant the case could be over much more quickly, and in a neater fashion as far as a jury is concerned. And as a result, [you] got better verdicts I thought. CAMPBELL: I know as a lawyer myself that the Southern district has a reputation that the judges strictly enforce the rules, and there is very little tolerance of disobedience of the rules, or that kind of thing. Would you say that that' ; s-- ALAIMO: You are right about that that is one of the things you learned. CAMPBELL: [In] a lot of courts, lawyers think that they can get away with things and therefore they try. But probably coming from practicing with Reuben Garland, that probably impressed on you the need for rules. ALAIMO: Very much. But it makes a tremendous difference in the way the jury perceives the case and after all that is the purpose of the entire system. CAMPBELL: One of the unusual things about the American system of justice is the jury of peers. And you have now tried many many cases and observed it. Are you a big fan of the jury? ALAIMO: Yes. They do a better job than I do. CAMPBELL: If you were accused of a crime would you rather be tried by jury as opposed to a Judge? ALAIMO: Very much so. CAMPBELL: I think that is very interesting and significant. Another thing that has been written about some recently, is the apparent demise of professionalism and civility among lawyers in court proceedings. Although, you sit here in the Southern district you' ; ve tried cases all over the country and I wonder what observations you have about civility and professionalism. ALAIMO: Well, fortunately I have not encountered that sort of thing. I don' ; t know whether is because I look bad or look mean or whatever it may be. Down here as I mentioned earlier we enforce the rules and the lawyers know we enforce them. So we don' ; t get problems with the lawyers. And in these other places I have sat they are always a little skittish about a visiting judge so they don' ; t bother you much. CAMPBELL: If they read about your background having been a WWII POW and trying to escape four times, that would probably put them being a little bit careful too. ALAIMO: I don' ; t know about that but at any rate I have never had any problem with lawyers. CAMPBELL: Now how is it that you try cases outside this court, in other words--of course you were invited to come into Atlanta for the airport case? ALAIMO: They invite you in to assist in cases, or in districts where they are kinda overwhelmed with pending cases. CAMPBELL: I have read somewhere that you have been brought in frequently where a given court might be overloaded to clear out the docket so to speak. How many different cases? ALAIMO: A number of them number in Florida, Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville Gainesville, St. Louis, Chicago, New Orleans, Toledo , Cincinnati, so on, Pittsburg. CAMPBELL: You sit as a trial judge in the Federal Trial court and then the next highest court up is the court of appeals. Then the next highest is the Supreme Court. On occasion you will sit on the appellate court--How does that happen? ALAIMO: They call you and say we need some help will you do it. I reluctantly say yes because I don' ; t like it to tell you the truth. CAMPBELL: That was going to be my question do you enjoy trying a case more than you do being an appellate judge? ALAIMO: All you do up there is read briefs. And I would have to consign myself to a lifetime of reading briefs. CAMPBELL: Much more interesting being in the court room? ALAIMO: Well of course. Sure. CAMPBELL: Well, this has certainly been a fascinating interview Judge Alaimo and I very much appreciate you doing it and I am sure that your transcript will be put to good use at the Russell Library. ALAIMO: Well, I fumbled through it and I haven' ; t been quite as loose as I should have been but nevertheless that is the way it is. CAMPBELL: Thank you. [End of interview] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL175OHD-004.xml RBRL175OHD-004.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD-004/findingaid
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88 minutes
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Brunswick, Georgia
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Interview with Anthony A. Alaimo, March 4, 2005
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RBRL175OHD-004
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Anthony A. Alaimo
Charles Campbell
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video
oral histories
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World War, 1939-1945
Prisoners of war
United States. Army. Air Corps
Judges--United States
Politics and Public Policy
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Charles Campbell interviews Anthony Alaimo about his experiences as a prisoner of war in Germany during World War II, his time as an attorney in Atlanta, and his tenure as a judge in the U.S. District Court (Southern District of Georgia). Judge Anthony Alaimo discusses his early life and education. He comments on his perception of and involvement with World War II, his enlistment and training in the Army Air Corps, and the crash which led to his time as a POW. Regarding his time as a POW, Alaimo discusses his experiences during captivity and his multiple escape attempts. He discusses his role in the film "Great Escape" and his subsequent education at the Emory Unviersity School of Law. Alaimo reflects on serving as an attorney in both Atlanta and Brunswick and as a judge. He comments on the Georgia prison system and the Guthrie V. Evans case and the significant changes he made as a federal judge.<br /><br /><span>Anthony A. Alaimo was born in 1920 in Sicily, and grew up in Jamestown, New York. After graduating from Ohio Northern University, Alaimo joined the Army Air Corps and became a fighter pilot in World War II. He was shot down over Holland and imprisoned by the Germans in the camp later made famous by the film The Great Escape. Following the war he attended Emory University Law School, subsequently practicing law in Atlanta and Brunswick. In 1971, he was appointed U.S. District Court Judge, Southern District of Georgia, and in 1972 presided over the Guthrie v. Evans prison reform case. In 1976, he was made Chief Judge of the District, a post he held until 1990.</span>
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2005-03-04
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
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Georgia
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moving image
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Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection
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Georgia--History
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Oral history collection consisting of interviews conducted for the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies since 2003.<br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=3&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here. </a>
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
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2003-ongoing
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Oral histories
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RBRL175OHD
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Georgia
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5.3 Interview with Carl Sanders, August, 17, 2004 RBRL175OHD-009 RBRL175OHD Richard B. Russell Library Oral History Documentary Collection OHD-009 Interview with Carl Sanders finding aid Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Carl Sanders George Justice 1:|9(15)|24(1)|34(2)|43(4)|56(1)|67(6)|77(13)|94(3)|105(5)|119(1)|130(7)|140(5)|150(4)|160(15)|172(9)|185(11)|200(8)|211(14)|224(1)|237(1)|250(4)|263(8)|275(5)|286(7)|298(9)|310(4)|326(4)|335(16)|346(15)|357(6)|370(9)|383(1)|395(13)|406(15)|421(1)|436(5)|450(1)|464(6)|476(6)|489(2)|504(2)|518(7)|529(11)|544(7)|557(9)|568(1)|579(12)|594(1)|607(11)|622(5)|633(7)|650(1)|660(5)|671(8)|685(2)|697(13)|710(3)|721(11)|734(11)|746(9)|764(10)|773(14)|783(12)|797(3)|808(13)|829(3)|845(9)|855(13)|866(12)|877(13)|894(3)|911(1)|925(2)|935(13)|950(1)|964(1)|972(6)|984(8)|999(14)|1011(10)|1028(14)|1042(11)|1054(3)|1069(4)|1081(7)|1094(3)|1111(11)|1126(4)|1137(8)|1155(14)|1169(12)|1179(8)|1196(6) 0 http://youtu.be/PwmfudUtslI YouTube video English 11 Introduction Hello, I'm George Justice. Justice introduces Governor Carl Sanders and briefly summarizes Sanders' political achievements and career. 17 101 Growing up in Augusta / Start in politics Governor Sanders, you grew up in Augusta. Sanders describes the political domination of the Cracker Party in Augusta during the 1950s. He reflects on his lack of exposure to politics as a child and on his eventual entry into politics as part of the Independent Party campaign that broke up the control of the Cracker Party. Augusta, Georgia ; Cracker Party ; entry into politics ; political machine 17 581 Influence of YMCA / Childhood upbringing during Great Depression The YMCA has had a great impact on my life. Sanders reflects on the impact of his involvement in the YMCA, which he credits for helping him eventually win a football scholarship to attend the University of Georgia. Sanders also describes his childhood growing up during the Great Depression, and mentions the work ethic he developed at a young age. He also comments about his view on racial prejudice. early education ; Great Depression ; interracial friendship ; middle class background ; racial prejudice ; work ethic ; YMCA 17 980 Involvement in ROTC, Army Air Corps, and World War II Tell me about the ROTC and what kind of impact that had on you as a youth. Sanders recounts the advantage that his high school ROTC training gave him when he enlisted in the army and his anticipation to train as a pilot. Sanders also reflects on the impact the war had on his maturity and decision to study law. He talks about returning to the University of Georgia on the GI Bill and his accelerated graduation from law school and reflects upon his hard work ethic and competitive spirit. Army Air Corps ; army training ; GI Bill ; impact of war ; law school ; Richmond Academy ; ROTC ; World War II 17 1603 Decision to run for governor Did you take that competitive spirit with you into politics? Sanders reflects on his decision to commit full-time to politics and the events that led him to campaign for governor. He also comments how his service and leadership in the Georgia House and the Senate aided him in becoming governor. campaigning ; county unit system ; governor ; President Pro Tempore 17 1958 Advocacy for education and school integration And at that time, the big question was " ; What are we going to do about the public schools in Georgia?" ; Sanders talks about his political advocacy to keep Georgia's public schools open when many Southern leaders wanted to close them in face of desegregation orders. He comments on advising Governor Ernest Vandiver to integrate the University of Georgia. Sanders also discusses his role in increasing the number of junior and community colleges, creating technical schools, and providing alternative, accessible educational programs. Brown vs. Board of Education ; education advocacy ; public school integration ; segregation ; University of Georgia integration 17 2394 Campaigning for governor / Relationship with John F. Kennedy Another issue at the top of your agenda early on in was honesty and efficiency in government. Sanders discusses his campaign for governor which centered around increasing the political honesty and efficiency of the state government. He attributes his election as governor to county level campaigning, aid he received from political supporters, and the abolition of the county unit system. Sanders also discusses his close relationship to President John F. Kennedy. county unit system ; Fort Gordon ; John F. Kennedy ; Marvin Griffin ; political campaign ; political honesty ; political relationships ; popular election 17 2979 Political relationships But did that ever create any tensions between you and Lyndon Johnson? Sanders comments on his close relationship to President Lyndon Johnson and the aid that Johnson appropriated to Georgia to fortify the coast against hurricanes. Sanders also discusses the close relationship between Johnson and Senator Richard Russell, although mentions that he himself did not have a close relationship to Russell. He also recounts an anecdote about Carl Vinson and the funding support Vinson gave to Georgia on his request. Carl Vinson ; Georgia coast ; Hurricane Dora ; Lyndon Johnson ; political relationships ; Richard Russell 17 3377 Goals as governor / Lester Maddox campaign When you went into the Governor's office, let's talk about goals versus achievements, what did you hope to accomplish when you became governor? Sanders discuses his goals as governor to reform education and increase industrial and business development, as well as his unsuccessful attempt to rewrite the Georgia Constitution. He reflects on the 1996 gubernatorial race and the series of campaign turns which led to Lester Maddox's selection as Governor. Sanders comments on Maddox's term as governor and laments the decreased executive power that he set as a precedent. 1960's Democratic Party ; Bo Callaway ; executive power ; gubernatorial campaign ; House election decision ; indecisive election ; Lester Maddox ; Southern Democrats 17 3976 1970 re-election campaign/ Views on Jimmy Carter's public office Well, after Maddox's terms as governor, you decided to run again. Sanders discusses his 1970 race for re-election and campaigning against his Democratic opponent Jimmy Carter. He discusses Carter's smear campaign against him focused on divisive race and class issues and Carter's switch from segregationist to integrationist before and after election. Sanders reflects on Carter's term as governor and, later, as president, and the obstacles he faced in having a successful and efficient term, including the Iran Hostage Crisis, a slow economy, and bad interpersonal relationships. 1970s economic recession ; inflation ; integration ; Iran Hostage Crisis ; Jimmy Carter ; re-election campaign ; segregation 17 4677 Personal achievements since Governor After 1970, you considered one more office in 1972 ; briefly you considered a run for the Senate, didn't you? Sanders discusses his decision to not run for the U.S. Senate after the death of Senator Russell and his support of Sam Nunn for the seat instead. Sanders compares the political power between the positions of senator and governor, and reflects on the personal achievements he has accomplished since retiring from politics. law firm ; personal achievement ; Sam Nunn ; Senate campaign 17 4979 Political legacy What is your political legacy? Sanders defines his political legacy as being the creation of the most progressive administration in Georgia. He discusses Georgia's progressive leadership on issues of race during the Civil Rights Era, which he credits as allowing Georgia to become the leader of the South on social and political issues. Atlanta-Birmingham competition ; Civil Rights Era ; leadership of the South ; political integrity ; progressive leadership 17 5264 U.S international relations / Criteria of good governance / Conclusion What do you think is the most critical issue facing us today, politically speaking? Sanders expresses his concern over the United States' worsening international relations with other countries. He also offers his opinion about the qualities of a good governor and the relationship of the press to the governor. Sanders also mentions Zell Miller's legacy of creating the HOPE Scholarship Program. 17 Oral History JUSTICE: Hello. I' ; m George Justice. On behalf of the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, the University of Georgia, it' ; s the 17th day of August 2004 and we' ; re at the Van Der Kloot Film Studios in Atlanta. We' ; re here today with former Georgia Governor Carl E. Sanders to discuss the highlights of his most distinguished public service career and to provide an oral history documentation that will accompany his papers at the University. Governor Sanders is a former state Legislator, state Senator, Floor Leader, and President Pro Tempe of the Georgia Senate before being elected to the governor' ; s office in 1962. He was the first Georgia governor to be elected by popular vote and was, at age 37, the youngest governor in the nation. Governor Sanders led the state during a time of tremendous political, social, and economic changes in the 1960s and brought both energy and professionalism to a reform agenda unmatched by many of his predecessors. Currently he is the chair and co-founding partner of Atlanta' ; s prestigious law firm of Troutman Sanders and has been involved in numerous investments, corporate boards, and charities. We appreciate your taking the time to speak with us today Governor. SANDERS: Glad to do it. JUSTICE: Let' ; s begin with our first question. Governor Sanders, you grew up in Augusta, an old Georgia city with a very colorful history and one of its most interesting and important legacies is the political leaders the city has provided to the state. This is especially true in the twentieth century ; people like Tom Watson, Roy Harris and even yourself rose to political prominence and became indelible figures in Georgia history. But even the local politics of the states second capital has included a very contentious, often contentious, political history with party strife and I was wondering whether or not that during your youth whether you were aware of any of the partisan struggles? SANDERS: Well Augusta of course politically was dominated and ruled by a party called the Cracker Party for years and in fact it got to the point where if you wanted to hold public office of any sort or you wanted to work for the city or the county you had to go through the Cracker Party in order to achieve employment. I was aware of that as a young man growing up but I was not so concerned about it until I came back after the war and after I went to law school and returned home to practice law. We had a situation where the Safety Commissioner who used to be the head of the fire department, by the way was named John Kennedy, control the Cracker Party. And after I had returned from the Air Force I practiced law in a firm called Hammond and Kennedy, later Hammond, Kennedy, and Sanders and I was approached by some of the local elders who had decided that the Cracker Party needed to be broken up because it was like Taminy Hall in New York. And they prevailed upon me and a few other young veterans to run against the candidates proposed by the Cracker Party. That was my entry into politics ; that was in 1954 I believe it was and I ran as a member of the Independent Party and we successfully broke up the Cracker Party' ; s hold on the public offices in Richmond County. JUSTICE: As a youth were you aware of--was politics a topic of household conversation at your home? SANDERS: Politics was not a topic of household conversation in my home. My father was employed by Swift & ; Company, the meat packing company. He grew up in Rex, Georgia south of Atlanta. He went to work for the company in Atlanta and then they transferred him to Augusta. He was with them for forty-four years. When I was growing up he didn' ; t indicate any interest in politics and I had no interest in politics. I was more concerned about whether I was going to go to the YMCA and learn how to swim or play basketball of football or all the sports programs were not in the public school but were in the institutions like the Y. My father later, after I came back after the war, did become a County Commissioner and he became a County Commissioner when the Cracker Party was still in its heyday. I learned in short order that that was not a very attractive job. Everybody wanted you to pave their driveway or pick up their trash or build a new road somewhere. So when I went to law school I really had no political ambition. My ambitions were to go through the University law school and come back home and practice law. And when I was in law school there were a lot of students who were already running for Governor, running for Lieutenant Governor and Officers. Most of them, for reasons that I never understood, never really achieved much success politically. But I came back to Augusta. I finished law school in--really in December ' ; 47 and I returned in January of ' ; 48 and joined the law firm. They worked me to death. I didn' ; t have time to be worried about politics. I was worried about making a living. My wife who I married in September had--actually in August, September was our anniversary--anyway, my wife became seriously ill so I had to try to provide for her. I not only had to practice law during the day but I taught law school at the Augusta Law School three nights a week so I was fully occupied and employed looking after my wife and practicing law. When I was asked about running for public office, I really didn' ; t know whether I wanted to do that or not. I went home and I talked to my wife about it. She was not too happy about it but she said if you decide to do it fine. I thought about it at length and decided that maybe the time had come for me to try to do something about what the situation was politically in my home town, so I ran. And I luckily won, led the ticket, ran against a boy that I had played YMCA football with, another lawyer-- JUSTICE: Billy Barton? SANDERS: Billy Barton. Later he was the District Attorney in Augusta some years later. But we had a very vigorous race but there were no monumental issues. The issue was, are you going to vote for the Cracker Party candidate or are you going to vote for the Independent Party candidate? And that' ; s how I got started. JUSTICE: So, was your lack of interest then, in politics when you initially came back to Augusta, because of the experience that you' ; d seen your dad go through? SANDERS: No, my lack of interest really was just what I said. I was so busy trying to make a living. I made $150 a month practicing law. I got a $600 bonus at the end of the year. In 1954, my first year' ; s salary and bonus was $2400. So you can imagine how I was trying to live and in addition to that my wife was sick. I finally took her to John Hopkins Hospital. They diagnosed her condition as Regional Ileitis--she had to have surgery. At one time earlier than that right after we were married, she was in the hospital in Bullock County, her home of Statesboro. The minister told me one night that she' ; d never live through the night. I got down on my knees with the minister and prayed as I never prayed before. Fortunately she lived through the night. She recovered. We didn' ; t think that we would ever be able to have children. Fortunately we had a daughter and a son and so I was really busy trying to make a living more than trying to determine whether I wanted to get into politics. But I knew that a political job like the County Commissioner was not everything that people thought it was cracked up to be, that it was a tough job. So, when I got into the legislative race it was different--I knew then that I would be going to Atlanta if I was successful and I would be serving in the General Assembly of Georgia. JUSTICE: You' ; ve talked about before a couple of things that had a lot of impact on you in your youth and one of those things was the YMCA. SANDERS: The YMCA has had a great impact on my life. That' ; s why I' ; m so interested in supporting the Y today, why I' ; ve tried to give back some of the material goods that I' ; ve acquired over the years back to the Y because my mother took me down to the YMCA on Broad Street in Augusta, Georgia when I was about seven, eight years old. That' ; s where I learned how to swim, first. Secondly, I learned how to play basketball. Thirdly, I learned how to play football. I went to the YMCA camps in the summer time. They were not very sumptuous camps but I went there and I developed an athletic ability and it was as a result of that athletic ability that when I went to high school at Richmond Academy I played football and I eventually became the most valuable player on the football team, I became a member of the all-state GIAA football team, I earned a football scholarship to the University of Georgia. Had it not been for some of the programs and so forth that I learned from the YMCA I doubt if I' ; d ever had an opportunity to get an athletic scholarship to go to Georgia. I don' ; t know whether I would have gone to college because my mother and my father neither one of them had ever gone to college and my father' ; s income working for Swift & ; Company was not such that you could just automatically put a kid through college. But I had worked in various and sundry forms before I went to college when I was in the high school and my dad, since he was with Swift & ; Company, got me a job with the Big Star supermarket. I worked from 7 o' ; clock on Saturday morning to sometimes 8 or 9 o' ; clock at night. I started out sacking groceries. I wound up catching flour sacks in the back of the store and when I was in college I came home, I carried the mail. During the Christmas holidays the postmaster was a friend of my fathers and I knew him. When I was in school, even in grammar school and during the summer time when school was out I had a paper route. I made seventy-five cents a week. I folded the papers in the morning and I gave my mother fifty cents to save and I spent a quarter. But I grew up in a wonderful middle class family but I grew up with a work ethic that I still have today. I grew up realizing that if you really wanted to get something, get ahead, you had to work and things were not going to be handed to me on a silver platter but if I was going to achieve anything in life, education or otherwise, I was going to have to go out and work for it. My mother was a very wonderful woman. She worked before she married my father she was a cashier at S.H. Crest and Company in Augusta and as I told you my father was a salesman with Swift & ; Company. So, growing up when I did, I was born shortly before the big stock crash in 1929. I was born in 1925 and of course I grew up in the depression. Now I didn' ; t realize that the depression was a severe as it really was. But what happened is that we had a little brick bungalow house on the corner of Johns and Wrightsboro Road that we were buying, that my family was buying. My father' ; s salary was cut half in two like many other people during the depression. We had to give that house back to the bank or to the insurance company and rent it instead of purchasing it. But I never really realized that I was suffering as a part of that depression. I didn' ; t have wonderful play toys, but I had skates and I had a football and I could play cops and robbers and we had some woods not too far down the street from where I lived and we had wonderful opportunities. We had a nice neighborhood with a lot of kids. We had some football games in the street. We had a basketball rim in somebody' ; s backyard. We just enjoyed a wonderful upbringing in my early years. I walked to school, to Monta Santa Grammar School. I served as a captain of the state patrol--safety patrol. Get there early in the morning. Make sure that the kids got across the street when they were coming to school and not get run over by an automobile. I, as I said earlier, I was active in the Y. I had a bicycle. I never had an automobile until I came back out of the service and I bought a black Plymouth Coupe ; paid $640 for the automobile, brand new automobile by the way. You can imagine how that compares to automobiles today. JUSTICE: So, these middle-class values, the values that you learned from the Y, do you think any of those values translated over into your political career? SANDERS: Yeah they did, for instance when I went to the paper route, you had to fold the papers in order to throw them so you can hit them on somebody' ; s front porch. I didn' ; t know how to fold the paper into the form that you could throw it. And one fellow that I got to be a good friend was a fellow named Charles Butler who was an African American. He taught me how to fold my papers so that I could put them in my sack and I could ride by bicycle and throw the papers. I learned from him right off the bat that he was a good solid individual and became a good friend of mine. Later when I was Governor I appointed him to the Board of Education. He later became principal of one of the high schools in Augusta and his name was Charles Butler but they called him " ; 98" ; because that was the route, the paper route that he threw. So I learned early on that it really didn' ; t make any difference what the color of your skin was it was what the people--the person that you dealt with, what they stood for and how they felt about you and how you felt about them. So I really learned early on that I didn' ; t have any prejudice, racially, against anybody because of the color of their skin. JUSTICE: Tell me about the ROTC and what kind of impact that had on you as a youth. SANDERS: Well, Richmond Academy when I went there was a thousand boys, military ROTC. We wore uniforms every day except Thursday and that' ; s when you supposed to put them in the laundry and you could wear civilian clothes. I didn' ; t fully realize what an impact that would have on my life. It was a fine school. The girls had a school several blocks down the street called Tubman High School but Richmond Academy was fully all male. So I initially started in the military ROTC program. I became a Corporal, a Sergeant, later became an Officer, later became an Officer, later became one of the top officers at the high school. I was elected President of my freshman class in high school and as I said I played athletics. But I learned how to do left face, right face, about face, and all the oblique left, oblique right, and how to march in the parades and how to take an old Springfield rifle and take it apart and put it back together. When I was an officer I wore Saber and had the tassels on your shoulders like a military thing. Well, all that was wonderful and I enjoyed it but what really happened was when I enlisted in the United States Air Force after I' ; d gone to Georgia for a year and I was seventeen and I had an alternate appointment to West Point that Congressman Paul Broun had awarded me but I thought the principal who was at the Citadel would not take the principal and he took the principal appointment to West Point so that left me out. And so I went over and enlisted in the Naval Air Core in Atlanta and they told me that I had a problem and I said, " ; What' ; s my problem?" ; They said, " ; You' ; re seventeen years old. You' ; ve got to go home and get your parents' ; consent." ; So I went home the next week to get my parents' ; consent. Thought about trying to land a plane on one of those aircraft carriers somewhere out in the Pacific Ocean and I said, " ; You know, I don' ; t believe I want to do that." ; I went out to Daniels Field in Augusta and enlisted in the Army Air Core. Well, a month later they called me up and my first stop was Kessler Field in Biloxi, Mississippi. Well that was just a beginning of a military career. I began to realize, though, that most of the people that were--that I was in the service with had never had any military training whatsoever. They didn' ; t know left face, right face, about face or anything about the military. So when I went into the service the military experience and training that I had in high school stood me very well. I later became the wing commander when I was in primary training, flight training. I had an official officer position all throughout my training to become a pilot and I even had a choice at a time to decide where I wanted to go to take advance training but much of it was because all the military had come so easy to me and so difficult to some of the others that I was miles ahead of the, militarily wise, and that was because of the ROTC program at Richmond Academy which, by the way, was one of the finest schools in the country. Was actually started, originated before the adoption of the United States Constitution. And I went back some years ago to the 200th Anniversary of that school. They had a faculty that was as good as any college faculty and it was a wonderful educational process. JUSTICE: And this military experience led to your participation in World War II, is that right? SANDERS: Well, that' ; s right. I mean, you know, I was like every other young man at that time. I was anxious to go out and defend my country. I didn' ; t want to stay at home and I certainly didn' ; t want to be classified as some people were back in those days, 4F is the terminology that was used. But I was anxious not only to go to the service and defend the country but I wanted to learn how to fly. I wanted to be a pilot. I didn' ; t know whether I could fly or not. I eventually went to Santa Ana, California where they had preflight school and they classified you bombardier, navigator, or pilot. I took all of the tests of written and the dexterity tests that they gave you and I came back and thought, " ; Man, I' ; ll never be a pilot." ; Some of my friends and buddies said, " ; Oh, that was easy. We going to get to be pilots." ; Well they wound up becoming bombardiers and navigators and I wound up as a pilot. But, there were a couple--in fact there was one boy from Augusta that was with me at that time named Ben Popkin. Ben Popkin later, I think, became a navigator. Ben' ; s dead now. But Ben was in the military about the same time that I was. I went in at--enlisted at seventeen, went in at eighteen, became a P-17 bomber pilot at 19 years old, first pilot with a ten man crew and of course was in the military almost three years and returned to civilian life and went back to the University of Georgia. JUSTICE: Did the war itself have any impact on you? SANDERS: Yeah, the war had a lot of impact on me. The first thing it did, it matured me far beyond my teenage years. I didn' ; t have those sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, nineteen year old experiences that some of these kids have today because I was in the service and we were at war and I was trying to make the best of whatever I could do to help my country. What it did for me was when I was at Richmond Academy and I made reasonably grades, I had some good grades in Chemistry. So I thought, " ; Well, someday I' ; ll be a chemist." ; I didn' ; t know what a chemist did other than it was in a lab and had a uniform of some sort on and tried to look at test tubes and things. But I said that because I really didn' ; t know anything else at that time that I wanted to do. While serving in the Air Force and in the military I began to realize that I didn' ; t want to be a chemist and I began to think about what I really wanted to be. I think the war matured me to the extent that it gave me an opportunity to make some judgment calls that I don' ; t believe I would have made if I had not gone to war. When I came out of the war I knew that I did not want to be a chemist but I had decided that I wanted to go to law school. The reason that I decided that I wanted to go to law school was because almost everybody that I heard about that were leaders and movers and shakers in the country at the time, in the world at the time had some type of legal education or legal background. And I thought if that' ; s the kind of education that it takes for you to really become successful in life in what you want to do, that' ; s what I want to do. So when I came back out of the Air Force September ' ; 45 I' ; d only had about one year of academic work in college. But they gave veterans an opportunity to take tests and if you could pass the test in any subject that you took they gave you credit because we had all types of educational courses when I was training for pilot. I passed enough tests to where I needed to take only one quarter to qualify for law school. So that was in ' ; 45. I played football that year. I returned to the football dormitory. Went back on the football team ; played in the Oil Bowl which later became the Blue Bonnet Bowl. And then I applied to law school. I went into law school in January of ' ; 46. It didn' ; t take me but a few weeks to realize that I could not continue to play football and get through law school. Law school was very competitive and I wanted to get in and get through law school as quickly as possible. So I went to Coach Butts and told him I was going to give up my athletic scholarship and I was going to continue to take my GI Bill of Rights and go to law school. That' ; s another thing, before I went into the service I played that year of football under Wally Butts and the University of Georgia football team and I promise you I thought the war was easier than playing football for Wally Butts as a freshman because it was tough. We not only had to play football on the football field but we had rat courts at night, we had belt lines, we had to run through--we had all kinds of obstacles to stay on athletic scholarship. But anyway, I got in law school. Law school normally takes three years. They allowed us to go around the clock, twelve months instead of taking the summer off. So I was able to finish law school in two years rather than three years. And back then, which they do not allow you to do now, you could take the Bar Exam if you felt like you could pass it. I went over at the end of my second year in law school, took the Bar Exam thinking I was taking it for practice with a couple of students who lived in the same house that I lived in out on Springdale Street and I lucked up and passed the Bar Exam after my second GI still had a year to go in law school but I passed the Bar Exam so I knew that I could practice law no matter what. That' ; s when I got serious about marrying my wife who was at Georgia at the time and who was in art school. And so we actually got married about three months before I finished law school and about six or eight months before I picked up my diploma. JUSTICE: You' ; re talking about law school and you' ; re talking about the football at Georgia. You were very competitive, weren' ; t you? SANDERS: I was very competitive, but I don' ; t think I ever realized how competitive I was. I mean, I was competitive because I enjoyed what I was doing. I enjoyed athletics, I enjoyed flying, I enjoyed responsibility, I enjoyed work but I was never obsessed and never felt like it, you know, I' ; m a real competitive guy. I never felt that way. JUSTICE: Did you take that competitive spirit with you into politics? SANDERS: Well, I think I did. I' ; m pretty sure I did because I never would have run for Governor if I hadn' ; t taken that into politics with me because when I went to the Legislature in ' ; 55 and served two years in the House I sat the first year and listened and kept my mouth shut and tried to find out how the General Assembly operated. Second year I became a little more involved in taking on some issues and then I went to the Senate and of course when I went to the Senate. The Senate back in those days, except for Fulton County, rotated within three counties for each district. Fulton County had the only permanent Senator. My district was the eighteenth Senatorial District. It was Richmond, Glascock, and Jefferson County and I first served the first term in the Senate from Richmond County. After two years in the Senate from Richmond County, Jefferson County allowed me to serve and for the Jefferson County term so I served a second term. The third term that I served in the Senate was for Glascock County. They allowed me to serve as their Senator. I was the only Senator and have been the only Senator in the history of the state that served in the Senate for three different counties representing those counties. If I had not done that I would not have been Governor today. But as a result of that I was Vandiver' ; s Floor Leader in my first term in the Senate. I later became the President Pro Tempe of the Senate. That' ; s when I decided before I was having to practice law and serve in the Senate at the same time so I was going to the political arena when I had to in Atlanta and I was coming home on the weekend and trying to cram in a weeks law practice and I decided that I either had to get in or get out of this political thing because it was taking too much time to try to squeeze in both ventures. So I decided well I think I' ; ll run for Lieutenant Governor. The county unit system was in full bloom. Segregation was still the law of the land. And I decided to run for Lieutenant Governor. Anyway, Ernie Vandiver--Peter Zack Geer had a closer relationship with Vandiver than I did and he was going to run for the same office that I thought I would run for. So I started campaigning for Lieutenant Governor and going around the state and visiting the various counties. And I got to Dublin, Georgia one day and the head of the newspaper down there was a gentleman by the name of Champion and he said, " ; Have you heard the news today?" ; And I said, " ; No, what' ; s the news today?" ; He said, " ; There' ; s a former policeman in Atlanta who' ; s got a law degree from a night school named Carl F. Sanders. He has announced that he' ; s going to enter the race for Lieutenant Governor." ; Well I knew what had happened. I mean, I knew that Peter Zack Geer and some of his friends had gotten this individual to offer for Lieutenant Governor. That would leave me in the position of having people to go to the poles and decide whether they wanted to vote for Carl E. or Carl F. and that would have been impossible. So I said to Mr. Champion, " ; Well, you know, if that' ; s the way they going to play the game I' ; ll just run for governor." ; And that' ; s when I got in the governor' ; s race. Believe it or not it was as a result of that particular incident. At that time when I went back to Atlanta to my office I had phone calls and I had people coming in saying, " ; Oh, don' ; t do that. You' ; re making a mistake. We' ; ve got the county locked up for you for Lieutenant Governor. We can' ; t carry it for Governor. Don' ; t make that change." ; And I said, " ; It' ; s too late. I' ; ve decided to make the change." ; So I got in the Governor' ; s race. The county unit system was still in full force and effect. I didn' ; t have any wonderful political machine. I was a bright young man on the white horse but I had a long way to go to get to the Governor' ; s office. But I had made up my mind that I either had to get into the political arena full time and serve the people of Georgia or go back to Augusta and practice law and be satisfied with that. JUSTICE: That was a very bold move going from Lieutenant Governor-- SANDERS: Well it was a crazy move when I think about it in retrospect because I had no campaign funds of any consequence. I knew that I had friends in my home town that would help raise money but I really didn' ; t have--I was not a Talmadge, member of the Talmadge dynasty. I was not a member of the Russell family. I was from Augusta, which was one of the metropolitan areas in the state. The county unit [End Side 1, Start Side 2] was willing to work hard so I thought, you know, everything else being equal it' ; s just another opportunity to exceed and I got in the race. JUSTICE: In all fairness, you had made quite a name for yourself in the Legislature, hadn' ; t you? SANDERS: Well I had and I had gone out on the legislative tour as when I was President Pro Tempe of the Senate the year before I announced and at that time the big question was " ; What are we going to do about the public schools in Georgia?" ; The Supreme Court Brown v Board of Education had already been decided. No longer were we supposed to have segregated schools but the Separate but Equal doctrine that the Supreme Court for so many years used to keep segregation in the country had been done away with. I realized, thinking about my own life and thinking about the lives of other people, that you could not have a state with nothing but private schools for the people who could afford them and have public schools, if any public schools at all they would be sub par. So I took the position that if I was elected to any public office in this state we were not going to close the public schools. Frank Twitty who was the member of the House that was on the tour with me initially took the position that we had to close the public schools and we had to build private schools and we had to succeed from the Union or whatever we had to do. But by the time we got through traveling around the state and speaking three times a day in various cities and counties, he finally came to the conclusion that I was right and he was wrong and we both wound up advocating that the public schools of this state would stay open no matter what. Now that translated into the situation with Governor Vandiver who was confronted with the problem of whether he was going to allow the two African American students Hamilton Holmes and-- JUSTICE: Charlayne Hunter. SANDERS: Charlayne Hunter was going to allow them to enter the University of Georgia. He called fifty some-odd leaders, legislative leaders, business leaders, political leaders, out to the mansion one night and said, " ; I' ; ve got to make a decision about closing the University of Georgia and I want to know how ya' ; ll feel about it." ; He went around the room and took the statement from all fifty people. Forty-eight out of the fifty said close the University of Georgia, Frank Twitty and I said, " ; Do not close the University of Georgia. You can' ; t do that. We can' ; t wind up with a generation of illiterates in this state." ; Vandiver took our advice and kept the University of Georgia open but it was that close. It was only two of us out of the fifty people that he called in to give him advice and counsel that were willing to stand up and say, " ; Let' ; s keep the schools open." ; JUSTICE: Why do you think he listened to the two of you over everyone else? SANDERS: Well, I think inherently, I think, he felt like we felt that you couldn' ; t have these private schools. But he had campaigned and gotten Roy Harris being one of the supporters when he was elected Governor had gotten him and a few other people to make this wonderful speech about " ; No Not One" ; not ever one will we ever admit to the public schools of Georgia. And I think he was confronted politically with that in mind and he knew that he would be going against what he had said in a political campaign so he had a lot of reservations. But basically and fundamentally, he was a good man, is a good man and I think he understood that education is a centerpiece of anybody' ; s life and that we couldn' ; t have private schools on the one hand for white students and public schools, if we had any public schools at all, on the other hand for black students. So I think he took our advice. Twitty was well known in South Georgia from Camilla and I was from Augusta and I think he believed that we had analyzed the situation properly and he followed our recommendation. JUSTICE: Education had been high on your agenda early on in your political career. SANDERS: That' ; s because I had to work for it. That' ; s because if I hadn' ; t had to work for it I wouldn' ; t have gotten where I' ; d been in life and I realized early on in life that the only free people that I know anything about are people who' ; ve had the benefit of an education. When you' ; re educated you' ; re free to make choices ; you' ; re free to analyze situations. When you' ; re uneducated you' ; re blocked ; you' ; re not free to do very much of anything and you' ; re imprisoned in your own life because of a lack of education. JUSTICE: In fact you helped get Augusta College established, didn' ; t you? SANDERS: That' ; s right. Augusta College started out as--they had a junior college attached to Richmond Academy, a local junior college. And it, to some of the faculty members there, used to also teach in the high school. When I was in the legislature property that was formerly known as the United States Arsenal Property up on Walton Way in Augusta, beautiful track of land of fifty something acres with buildings on it had been declared surplus. I went to work with the local people there to get that land transferred to the local board of education to move the junior college from the Richmond Academy building up to the arsenal property. I also went to work when I was in the legislature to get that two year junior college into the university system to become a part of the University of Georgia system. I was able to do that. When I was elected governor I made it along with three or four other junior colleges into a four year community college and created another ten or twelve junior colleges throughout the state. When I was in the Senate and serving in the Senate I went to California. I studied the community college system in California. Out there you could go to school free of charge in any community college that you wanted to enter. And I came back and realized that we couldn' ; t educate everybody at the University of Georgia in Athens or Georgia Tech in Atlanta. And so I came up with the idea that we needed to create a series of junior colleges, community colleges where kids could stay at home, could go the first two years and then back in that day and time transfer to a four year college if they wanted to. Many of those junior colleges today are senior colleges and of course that program turned out to be a wonderful educational program for the state of Georgia. At the same time we created these junior colleges. We created these vocational-technical schools which are a different type of educational process where kids could learn a trade, learn how to operate machinery and if they wanted to if they were not going for an academic degree in the junior college or the community college they could go back and forth between the vocational-technical school and the liberal arts junior college or senior college. It was a wonderful educational program. For instance, in Augusta a kid can go to high school, go to college, go to medical school, and get a medical degree without ever leaving home. JUSTICE: Another issue at the top of your agenda early on in was honesty and efficiency in government. SANDERS: That' ; s right. I was on the Honesty and Efficiency Committee that was set up when Marvin Griffin was governor and Ernie Vandiver was lieutenant governor and I was a member of the Senate. And I saw first-hand what could happen when people decided to become corrupt and use the resources of the government and the offices that they served in for corrupt purposes. So I realized that you couldn' ; t serve in government and if--unless you were going to be totally honest and if you couldn' ; t serve in government and be partially honest you had to be absolutely honest and you had to make sure that whatever decision you made was made with an honest intention and an honest purpose and not to feather somebody else' ; s nest or to try to do something that would benefit you personally for something that you should not be entitled to. JUSTICE: And that was one of the focal points of your platform for governor, wasn' ; t it? SANDERS: That was a big focal point for my platform for governor because the Griffin administration when Governor Griffin was in there had a very corrupt administration. Readers Digest had written an article, " ; Never Have So Few Robbed So Much from So Many," ; and they had rural roads that were built with a little grease on the road and that was about it. They bought gasoline and saving up machines that came off of boats and tried to put them on trucks. They favored some of their cronies and in all kinds of purchasing of equipment and so forth and that was one of the big issues in my campaign along with the racial issue. JUSTICE: So, how were you able to garner all the support that you did in your campaign for governor, enough to win? How were you able to win that race? SANDERS: Well, I think--well another thing happened too in the meantime. After I got in the race, after we were campaigning the county unit system went out of the window. So this was the first time that we had the popular vote. I just outworked the rest of the people ; I outworked Marvin Griffin. I went from morning till noon till night every day. I campaigned in every county in the state. I was supported by many of the people that I had gone to college with. I was able to get the support of Mills B. Lane who headed up the CNS Bank in Atlanta at the time. He had initially was going to support Garland Byrd who was the Lieutenant Governor who had a heart attack and dropped out of the race. He helped me raise financial funds. I later, when Byrd dropped out of the race who Ernie Vandiver was supporting up until then, I got the support of some of the Vandiver people such as Jim Gillis Senior and some of them. But basically and fundamentally I just outworked the Griffin crowd. I knew that if I went every day as hard as I could go to as many places as I could go that they were going to call him up eventually and say, " ; You better come down here to this county and talk to some of these people. This young man has been in here shaking hands and garnering votes and if you don' ; t come down here we don' ; t know what' ; s going to happen." ; He had the politicians ; I had the people in that race. JUSTICE: When you won that election you were part of a whole generation of young politicians across this country. SANDERS: Generation of young politicians--young men and women who had returned from World War II who now wanted to do something that they had seen the rest of the world, they had fought for the freedom of the world and they wanted now to make some of these changes in their local communities and they were active and they went to the polls and voted when before the only people that generally went to the polls and voted were the professional politicians who had a hardcore supporters most of whom they gave jobs to after they got elected. JUSTICE: And you also were part of that generation that had a special connection to John Kennedy. SANDERS: Well, John Kennedy was a young, handsome, energetic senator who decided to run for President after he had tried to get the nomination several years before. He was a returning World War II veteran. And of course he had a lot of charisma and a lot of people like myself and others of that age and that ilk liked what we saw in John Kennedy and supported him. And he carried Georgia percentage wise with the greatest percentage of any state in the union. But he, of course, his career was eclipsed by the assassination. I knew him well. He did me some great favors ; one great favor he did for me was something that I will never forget. After I was elected in August of the primary of 1963 before I took--' ; 62--before I took office in January of ' ; 63 Fort Gordon, which was located in Augusta, Richmond County--was the biggest payroll in my county. And the United States Defense Department announced that they were going to close Fort Gordon. Well, I said, " ; This can' ; t happen." ; I' ; d just been elected governor. I can' ; t afford to let the biggest payroll in my home town get shut down. So I went to see Senator Russell who was the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee in the Senate and who was a senior Senator from Georgia. And I said, " ; Senator Russell I' ; ve just been elected. I can' ; t allow Fort Gordon to be closed. Can you help me try to keep them from closing Fort Gordon?" ; Senator Russell said, " ; I' ; m sorry but I' ; ve already signed off on the base closings in Georgia. There' ; s nothing I can do about it now." ; I said, " ; Thank you very much." ; I decided to go see President John F. Kennedy. I went to see John F. Kennedy in the Oval office at the White House, explained to him my predicament, told him that I was elected and they were about to shut the fort down, could he help me? He said, " ; Let me see what I can do." ; I went back to Atlanta. A week later he called me up and said, " ; The order to close Fort Gordon has been rescinded." ; I said, " ; Can I make that announcement publicly?" ; He said, " ; Yes." ; I made the announcement ; it made Senator Russell mad because I had gone to the President. But John Kennedy was the one who kept Fort Gordon from being moved from Fort Gordon, Georgia to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. Later, several years later, Fort Monmouth, New Jersey was moved to Fort Gordon, Georgia and it became the largest military telecommunications center in the world. But had it not been for John F. Kennedy more than forty years ago Fort Gordon, Georgia would have been shut down and would have been moved to Fort Monmouth, New Jersey. JUSTICE: But you actually had a fairly close relationship with him. SANDERS: Oh I had a close relationship with him. I did. I visited him many times before he was assassinated. I had a very close--very close relationship with Lyndon Johnson who later became president. I campaigned for the democratic ticket in 1964 when I was the only state-wide official that was willing to campaign for the ticket. I knew at the time that it was not the popular thing to do but I had been elected by the Democratic Party. I was head of the Democratic Party. Senator Russell went to Spain and spent the summer inspecting military bases, Senator Talmadge went underground and didn' ; t surface for the campaign so I was about the only state-wide candidate when they would come to Georgia that would stand up and appear on a platform and try to help him get elected. Goldwater carried Georgia and there wasn' ; t much I could do about it but that still--I knew that it was my responsibility. I had been elected head of the party, I had been elected by the Democratic Party as governor and I felt like it was my responsibility to continue to lead the party and not abandon the party as a lot of the other public officials did. JUSTICE: Is it true that John Kennedy had considered putting you on the ticket in ' ; 64? SANDERS: Well I' ; ve heard that rumor, I' ; ve heard that story. There was always a very bad relationship between Bobby Kennedy who was John Kennedy' ; s brother and who was of course the Attorney General--he and Lyndon Johnson didn' ; t get along at all. And I think Bobby Kennedy would float names every day about who they were going to put into place of Lyndon Johnson when Jack Kennedy ran for reelection. And my name might have been put in there along with others but I never had any serious consideration to my knowledge about being on the ticket. Nobody had come to be and said, " ; Now we going to put you on the ticket." ; I think they were--Bobby was using that for leverage to keep Lyndon Johnson in line for the programs that he and his brother were advocating. JUSTICE: But did that ever create any tensions between you and Lyndon Johnson? SANDERS: None whatsoever. In fact, I sat in the family' ; s box when he made his inaugural speech to the Congress. I was the only other outside member of the family with one other exception and that was Mad Dick Daily from Chicago. He and I were the two members--non-members of the family sat there. I hunted at the Johnson ranch. Johnson was good to the state of Georgia. Johnson, later part of our state qualified for the Appalachian Region and we got hundreds and millions of dollars for hospitals, roads, schools, and all sorts of things through the Johnson administration. Dora, I think it was that hit--the hurricane hit the Georgia coast and just about tore up the whole seaboard the whole Georgia coast. He allowed me to put huge amounts of rock along the coastal lines of Georgia. Johnson' ; s administration paid for every dime of it, didn' ; t cost the state a nickel, but it saved the Georgia coast. The people of Georgia benefited from Lyndon Johnson' ; s administration in many ways. JUSTICE: Your relationship with Johnson, did that affect your relationship with Dick Russell? SANDERS: No, Dick Russell and Johnson were very close when Johnson was a majority leader of the Senate. And based on some tapes that I' ; ve been hearing recently they still, even after Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act, Dick Russell apparently still had a cordial relation with Lyndon Johnson but I think the relationship that they used to have before Johnson advocated the Civil Rights Bill had tempered their relationship to a great degree. But it did not affect my relationship with Johnson and it didn' ; t affect--I didn' ; t have a close relationship with Dick Russell. JUSTICE: You didn' ; t? SANDERS: No, no, and when I was in the Senate another experience that I had, when I was in the state Senate the first time they made me head of the Veterans Affairs Senate Committee which was a do-nothing, know-nothing committee. But anything it had to do with the state military was involved with it. And we lost an Air National Guard pilot flying an old F-84 Dog they called them back them and he died. He crashed. And I went to Washington to see Congressman Carl Vinson who was the head of the Armed Services Committee in the House and who absolutely built the United States Navy as part of his duty as a chairman of the Armed Services Committee and told him about the loss of the pilot. And he asked me what I wanted and I said, " ; I want fifty new aircraft for the Air National Guard of Georgia." ; And he said, " ; What kind of aircraft are you talking about?" ; And the hottest aircraft in the world at that time was the F-100 so I said, " ; I want fifty F-100s" ; and he laughed and said, " ; What' ; d you say Senator?" ; And I said, " ; I want fifty F-100s." ; He laughed and he said, " ; Well, we' ; ll see what we can do." ; I knew and he knew that I was not going to get fifty F-100s but a few weeks later I got a call from the head of the National Guard Bureau in Washington who I could tell was mad as a wet hen because I' ; d gone to Congressman Vinson and told me that they were going to send us new aircraft, F-86s, which were much more modern than the F-84s. They were not F-100' ; s but they were going to send those aircraft. Now this was in the 50' ; s. This was still when the schools were segregated in Georgia and everything else was segregated. So, sometime later I got a notification that they were going to deliver the first F-86 aircraft out at Dobbins Air Base in Marietta and so we had a big event. We had bands and we had people and we--here comes this F-86 aircraft in and he rolls--it' ; s a beautiful plane and I thought what a wonderful plane this is our first aircraft. And the band' ; s playing and all that and the airplane taxies up to the ramp. The pilot pulls back the canopy and out steps the blackest pilot you' ; ve ever seen and I knew that Air National Guard general said, " ; I' ; m going to deliver the aircraft but I' ; m going to deliver it with a pilot that they wish we hadn' ; t delivered it with." ; It was funny. And of course he was a good pilot and we were glad to get the airplane. And, of course, subsequently to that point all the racial discord and so forth began to heat up and it was in full bloom when I became governor. JUSTICE: Back to Dick Russell, you considered running against him in ' ; 66, is that right? SANDERS: ' ; 66, I thought about it. But Senator Russell was suffering from emphysema and I didn' ; t know whether he was going to offer for re-election. He had come to the legislature to make a speech and he used to have to carry one of these oxygen bottles around with him. So I didn' ; t know whether he was going to offer for reelection or not. I thought about it, but he was determined to continue his service to the people of the state and to the nation and I finally decided that that was not what I wanted to do for two reasons. One was, it would have been a very difficult race and the second reason was my wife was not interested in me going to Washington. My children were teenagers, that was ' ; 66, that was when the hippie thing had started and I had seen too many families that had left their home states and moved to Washington for a year and then the family would move back and the senator would stay up there, the congressman would stay up there and they' ; d wind up in the divorce courts or the kids would get in trouble. So I decided that rather than do that I had an opportunity to build a law firm and I decided that I would build a law firm and if I wanted to get back into public life that I' ; d run for governor again four years later because I had to leave the office for four years under the Constitution at that time. JUSTICE: When you went into the governor' ; s office--let' ; s talk about goals versus achievements. What did you hope to accomplish when you became governor? SANDERS: Well, I hoped to do as much as I could possibly do within four years that anybody had ever thought about doing. And I hoped to reform the educational system of the state, particularly the higher education system. I hoped to bring more industry in than anybody had ever brought in before. I hoped to elevate the teacher' ; s salaries of the state. I hoped to build airports. I campaigned in a little 250 horsepower Piper Comanche aircraft. The first time anybody in Georgia, a politician had ever campaigned in an aircraft. And we only had thirty paved airports in Georgia ; most of them were auxiliary fields from World War II. When I left office we had 100 paved airports in Georgia. We built seventy paved airports. All I ever asked the county commissioner to do was furnish me a strip of land 3,000-3,500 feet long. I' ; d put up half the money, the state would the federal government would put up half the money and we' ; d build an airstrip. And so we had the number one airport development in the country for four straight years. That brought more industry into this state than you can ever imagine because people before were not thinking about flying to Atlanta and then driving two hours to look at an industrial site in a rural county but if they could fly to that rural county, land on that 3,000 foot strip of airport they would go out and look at the industrial sites in those counties and many of them built plants that never would have been built in Georgia. JUSTICE: Was there anything that you had hoped to accomplish that you didn' ; t achieve? SANDERS: No, I accomplished much more than I ever thought I was able to accomplish. I had one disappointment but it was not because I didn' ; t accomplish what I sought out to do. And that was I decided to rewrite the Georgia Constitution which it had not been rewritten in years and there was no place in the state where you could sit down and actually read the Georgia Constitution because it had been amended thousands of times. So I had a special session to rewrite the Constitution and remodel the election laws. And that was in 1965 or 1966 in the summer and of course I rewrote the Constitution which was one of the toughest jobs that you could ever have and I rewrote the election laws. Immediately somebody filed a petition saying the legislature was mal-apportioned. They went to the federal court and the federal court to this day, I' ; ll never understand, it was a fifth circuit court of appeals, they decided that both of those pieces of legislation had been done in the same session that it was all right to rewrite the election laws that they were not going to declare them invalid because of mal-apportionment but it was not permissible to rewrite the Constitution and they were going to declare that unconstitutional because it was mal-apportioned. I appealed that decision from the court but by the time that the Supreme Court of the United States voted upon it which was too late to get it on the general ballot in ' ; 66 I was not able to get it on the ballot. That was a big disappointment because that was a big piece of work that I had done and I was unable to get it finished. [End Tape 1] [Begin Tape 2] JUSTICE: You were succeeded by Lester Maddox as Governor and the 1966 gubernatorial race was contentious and controversial. SANDERS: Very much so. JUSTICE: And, with the Republican Party running Bo Callaway as their nominee and with Ellis Arnall and Lester Maddox. James Cook, your biographer, writes that you had some very strong reservations about that election. SANDERS: Well, what happened in that election, the truth of the matter is Bo Callaway, if he had played his political cards correctly, would have been elected Governor. But Bo Callaway ran as a republican candidate and of course Ellis Arnall--I don' ; t know Ellis Arnall and Lester Maddox--but I think Ernie Vandiver at one time was in that race. There were several candidates that were trying to run for governor. Maddox wound up in a run off with Ellis Arnall in the democratic primary. Bo Callaway had no opposition in the republican primary and he was supported by a lot of the business leaders in Atlanta, some of whom are my good friends. And Ellis Arnall had a campaign deficit after the run off. My recollection is something like $50,000 that he still owed for his campaign and his run off against Maddox. Some of Ellis Arnall' ; s friends in Atlanta went to see Bo Callaway and said, " ; If you' ; ll help us, when you get elected Governor pay off Governor Arnall' ; s campaign deficit we' ; ll throw our support to you." ; For reasons that I never understood, Bo Callaway declined that opportunity. They said, " ; Well if you' ; re not going to help us get rid of Ellis Arnall' ; s campaign deficit if you get elected Governor, we' ; re going to run Ellis Arnall again as a write-in candidate in the November general election." ; That' ; s what they did. Ellis Arnall polled enough write-in votes to keep either Bo Callaway or Lester Maddox from getting more than fifty percent of the vote as required by the Constitution and the election laws. Under those circumstances at that time the Constitution said in that event the election of the governor will then go to the House of Representatives and the governor will be elected by the members of the House of Representatives each of whom will have one vote. The democrats were not very happy about Maddox but they didn' ; t want Callaway as a republican governor. So the democrats sort of held their nose and voted for Maddox and that' ; s how he got appointed Governor and Callaway got defeated for Governor in that particular situation. Subsequently, the Constitution was changed and now today if you have that type of a situation you have a special election, it does not go into the House of Representatives. JUSTICE: Tell me about Maddox' ; s stint as Governor. How would you rate it? SANDERS: Well, Maddox did pretty well. He did better than I thought he was going to do for one reason: all these people that had been called Maddox supporters that had been running around with Ax handles and egging him on in his campaign he realized that they were not qualified to hold the high positions of office in the state government. So he kind of took the position that he was not going to change many people that were already running departments in the state government. In fact, I made up the budget for the two years, his first two years, and he didn' ; t change a bit of that budget so I really had six years of budget to submission for the state. But his position was that he was going over and take the Governor' ; s office and protect the public from those scalawags that he might find in government but he was not going over there and try to change all the offices and change the people. So he left most of the people that had worked with me in office and he didn' ; t meddle too much with--the only thing that he did that I regret was that he allowed the General Assembly of Georgia to take over much of the executive power that the governor previously had. And they created their own budget and they became independent and ever since Lester Maddox, the governor of Georgia has been a lot less politically forceful than he was when I was in office. JUSTICE: You think if Maddox had of been a stronger executive that that would not have happened? SANDERS: I think if he had ever held public office, I think if he had ever been in the General Assembly like I had been before I was elected governor, I think even if he had been mayor of Atlanta or something I think he would have been much stronger in controlling the executive power and not allowing it to be taken over by the legislature. JUSTICE: You think that that--that a strong executive could have survived much longer in Georgia? SANDERS: Yeah I do. I think that' ; s the best form of government. I think the governor goes out and lays his program out in front of all the people of the state. The people vote on that program. And I think the governor ought to have the responsibility of implementing the program that the people had voted on rather than the way it is now. Legislators, they don' ; t represent the entire state ; they represent their own county or district. And they now put programs though the legislature that the governor may not want or other people may not necessarily have ever approved. JUSTICE: Well, after Maddox' ; s term as governor you decided to run again. SANDERS: Yeah. JUSTICE: Talk about that campaign. SANDERS: Well, that was not a very nice campaign. I stayed in Atlanta and built a law firm. I probably should have gone back to Augusta and returned to my law firm in Augusta rather than doing what I did, but I had an opportunity to represent companies and clients in the Atlanta area that were national and they were much more interested in good legal representation than I would have had if I had gone back to Augusta. If I' ; d just wanted to be a politician the rest of my life I probably should have gone back to Augusta. So I didn' ; t do that. Jimmy Carter, who had been in the Senate when I was governor, had spent--and who had been in the race in ' ; 66 with Maddox and that group and who had failed in that race, spent four years traveling around the state, planting seeds to run for governor in 1970. I thought, just like many people think, that the people of the state or the people of the country have a memory of the things that you did when you were in public life and the accomplishments that you were able to achieve for their benefit and that I had such a good administration, no scandals, a lot of progress, a lot of opportunity for people that they never had before, that to run in 1970 that would give me a good edge to be reelected. Jimmy Carter, much to my chagrin, took the position that he was going to play the racial card. He took the position that he was supporter of George Wallace, which I was not, and that I had not allowed George Wallace to come over and take over the Georgia legislature that he would if he was elected. I happened to--while I was in Atlanta--happened to own a part of the Hawks, Atlanta Hawks basketball team. They took pictures when they won the Western Division in the locker room with me and some of the ball players pouring champagne over my head and these were African American ball players. Carter' ; s campaign took those pictures in all spread them all over South Georgia, all over the rural counties of the state and took the position that I was a rich Atlanta lawyer and that I was a--one who favored integration. That he was a southern peanut farmer in south Georgia who supported segregation and who was a big friend of George Wallace and I got positioned as an Atlanta lawyer who supported people regardless of their race and he put himself in the position as a south Georgia farmer who supported the white race and not the black race and that' ; s how that campaign was run. It was a mean, dirty, campaign. But it was politics. And the truth of the matter is everything is fair in love and war in politics. Now the irony of it, if you go to the Carter library today and ask to see the gubernatorial papers of the 1970 campaign they will tell you that those papers are still being processed some thirty, forty years later because immediately when Jimmy was elected governor at his inaugural speech he said, " ; Forget about all this racial stuff that I' ; ve been running on and all this stuff that I' ; ve been telling you to vote for me on. That' ; s not me. The greatest friend that I' ; ve got in America today is Martin Luther King Jr. and I believe in integration and I don' ; t believe in segregation and I ran that kind of race to get elected and now I' ; m going to put that aside and operate in a completely different manner." ; JUSTICE: He used race and class, didn' ; t he? SANDERS: Yeah. JUSTICE: Because he called you " ; Cufflinks Carl." ; SANDERS: Oh yeah, well course he claimed that I was wealthy and finally we disclosed our net worth and he was worth more money than I was. But for the time being I was the rich lawyer living in Atlanta, and the truth of the matter is too nobody up until that point running for state-wide office had ever lived in Atlanta as their permanent home. All the officer holders that ran the state government lived outside of Atlanta in some other section of the state. JUSTICE: So how would you rate Carter' ; s stint as governor? SANDERS: Carter didn' ; t have a very good gubernatorial experience but I' ; ve gotta say this in his behalf: one of the reasons he didn' ; t have such a good four years was Lester Maddox was his lieutenant governor. And Lester Maddox and Jimmy Carter disliked each other tremendously and they never got along and everyday they' ; d have a fight over what kind of legislation that they were going to try to entertain. And Maddox would be in one corner and Carter would be in another. And that went on for four years. So he didn' ; t have too much of an opportunity to do too many things without having to run through Maddox and try to stomp him down in order to get something passed. JUSTICE: What was the source of tension between them? SANDERS: Well, Maddox believed Carter was hypocritical and dishonest when he ran as a segregationist and then turned into an integrationist and Maddox says you know, " ; I' ; m a segregationist, have been, always will be," ; and Carter has changed his stripes and his colors and I dislike the man because he hadn' ; t been honest. You know Maddox all--for all of his faults one of the things that he believed in and one of the things that I think he tried to do was he tried to be honest no matter how different or how un-political some of his views might have been. He at least said, " ; This is my honest viewpoint. I' ; m not going to change on you if you elect me and I' ; m not going to be something that I said I was not before I ran for the office." ; JUSTICE: How do you explain Carter' ; s winning the presidency in ' ; 76? SANDERS: He just absolutely outworked the rest of the candidates who thought they were going to sit back and somebody was going to nominate them and put them into the democratic nomination. Carter, I' ; ll say this for he and his family and his friends, he started--that' ; s another reason he didn' ; t have as much opportunity to do as many things as governor as perhaps he would have been if he had not been already looking to run for President. The last couple of years of his office--of his tenure as governor he was out in the country campaigning for President. And of course a lot of these people in Washington who sit in the congress thought they could sit in the Senate and the House and never have to go out into the rural areas or the other parts of the country but they were just going to go to the convention and they' ; d get nominated. Carter just outworked them. He out politicked them and he got the nomination of some of these states that they never dreamed he' ; d get and that' ; s how he got the nomination for President. The people never thought he had a chance but he just absolutely outworked and out-campaigned the rest of the people who thought they were going to be President. JUSTICE: And it doesn' ; t seem that the press seized on this characteristic of Carter from switching from one side to the other. SANDERS: Well, they didn' ; t do that in the Presidential race. He had already spent his four years of redeeming his self as a racial George Wallace supporter when he ran in ' ; 70 and the press didn' ; t hop on him for that when he ran for President. He--what they did do they gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was an outsider and all these other people who thought they were going to run for President at that time were insiders, inside the beltway in Washington. And Washington was in such a mess that it was time for an outsider to come in and clean it up. And that' ; s what Carter ran on primarily as, " ; I' ; m not one of the insiders in Washington but I' ; m an outsider. I' ; m a governor and if you' ; ll elect me I' ; ll go to Washington and I' ; ll straighten out this Washington mess that' ; s created by all these people who spend all their time inside the beltway." ; JUSTICE: Do you think he was a better President than he was a governor? SANDERS: No, I think he had a tough time being President. I think he tried to be a good President but I think he got caught up in inflation and I think he got caught up in the Iran hostage situation. I think he had a lot of problems that were not necessarily his making but you know, interest rates during the Carter' ; s Administration for the President got up to be twenty percent. People didn' ; t have jobs. People couldn' ; t afford to borrow money. The hostages got taken over in Iran. He just had a huge--you know in politics, let me tell you something: you can be smart but you' ; ve got to have a little luck along with it. The economy went bad. He couldn' ; t turn the economy around. The hostage situation went bad. They even waited to release the hostages until the day Ronald Reagan was sworn in as a President. They could have released them earlier ; they didn' ; t do that. And Jimmy went up to Washington, I think, with the idea that he would straighten out a lot of the old pros that had been around. And he had a terrible relationship with Tipper O' ; Neal, Speaker of the House and some of the other old Washington pros. He liked to micromanage too much. In my opinion, if he had delegated more authority to more people he probably would have had a better administration. I think he' ; s learned that since he left the presidency and I think he has done some rather remarkable things following his tenure as President. He certainly has continued to campaign and work harder as an ex-President than any ex-President I' ; ve ever known. Some people, some of these sitting Presidents have sort of resented maybe some of his meddling, as they would put it. But he' ; s been out here trying to relieve problems in the world. Most ex-Presidents go back to their ranch, they go back to their home and don' ; t do that. He' ; s taken a different approach and I think as a result he' ; d been elevated ; history has elevated him higher as an ex-President than they give him credit for being a president or a governor. JUSTICE: After 1970 you considered one more office in 1972 ; briefly you considered a run for the Senate, didn' ; t you? SANDERS: Well, that' ; s when Russell died. JUSTICE: Right. SANDERS: And I thought about it again. But I had a good law firm being built at that time and I was involved with my family as I always am and I decided again that I didn' ; t want to go to Washington. I had talked to too many governors that I had served with when I was governor, some of which went to Washington. And they told me, and just like most people know, that you got to sit in the Senate for about twelve years and vegetate before you get enough influence and power to do anything. And I was helping build a bank and I had some other business ventures that I was involved in. So Sam Nunn who had never run for state-wide office and who was a member of the General Assembly who was Carl Vinson' ; s nephew decided he was going to run and I like Sam Nunn, knew him, and I took Norman Underwood who was one of my law partners and asked him to go over and help Sam Nunn run his campaign which he did. And Sam Nunn got elected to the United States Senate and served twenty-four years in the Senate. Came out with his reputation in tact. And I never regretted making the decision in ' ; 72 that I thought about going to the Senate again because most of the people, as I said earlier that I knew that had served as governor and when you serve as governor and you' ; re Chief Executive and you can run the state (it' ; s like running a big business) that' ; s different than being one of one hundred in the Senate where you sit there and hope you can get your name on a bill. And in the mean time you just almost vegetating for years and years and that' ; s not my demeanor. That' ; s not my personality and they told me, most of them said after they served one term they wanted to go back home. Herman Talmadge, when he left the governor' ; s office and served in the Senate for a number of years, every six years when--every four years when the governor' ; s race would come up you' ; d always see where Talmadge is thinking about coming home and running for governor again. It' ; s much more fun to be governor than it is to be a United States Senator. JUSTICE: Well why didn' ; t you consider running for governor again? SANDERS: Why didn' ; t I consider running for governor again? JUSTICE: Right. SANDERS: Well, I felt like that I had accomplished a great deal as governor the first time. I felt like that the people had decided that they were going to elect somebody else to be governor and I still at that time when I ran in 1970 I still had in my mind a lot of programs that I still wanted to do more about. But by the time that I got an opportunity to run again I had gotten so immersed in my own personal affairs and my family' ; s affairs and building a bank and building a law firm and getting involved in some real estate transactions that I felt like, " ; Well, I gave the people the best I could give them for the four years that I was governor. Now the people selected somebody else, rather, when I ran for reelection." ; I' ; m going to look after my family and look after my personal business and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Because otherwise I might, I don' ; t know what' ; d I be doing today but I wouldn' ; t be where I am today with my family, with my business, with my law firm, none of those personal accomplishments I don' ; t think would have taken place if I had continued just to devote my time to the political arena. JUSTICE: So you weren' ; t really dissuaded by the bitterness of the ' ; 70 campaign? SANDERS: No, you know, I--politics--I' ; ve been there and done that. And I' ; ve got a good record and I put sixty cents out of every dollar into education. Nobody' ; s ever done that before or since. And I accomplished all those things and I thought too, you know, if I go back ten years later I may not be able--the Maddox thing the legislature had taken over the power, I wouldn' ; t be able to accomplish the things that I accomplished when I was governor and instead of having the record that I have I' ; d probably have a good record back then and a mediocre record later. So I said, " ; Look, the people decided that they wanted somebody else to carry the flag in 1970. I' ; m going to look after my personal business and be happy," ; and I' ; ve got no regrets and I got no ill will toward anybody. JUSTICE: What would you, if you had to put it in a sentence or two, what is your political legacy? What have you left to--? SANDERS: The most progressive administration in the history of Georgia in all aspect of the operation of the state government. If you look at every department in the state government and you look at the accomplishments that were made and the programs that I inaugurated, nobody has come close even when the governor' ; s served eight years have come close to putting into full force and effect what I put into full force and effect in all the areas of government and done so without scandal and done so--I left $140 million in surplus funds when I left the office. Nobody had ever done that before. JUSTICE: In the end, do you think that you were more affected by Georgia politics or that you affected Georgia politics more? SANDERS: Well, I think I affected Georgia politics more in that a lot of things back before my term as governor was sort of accepted politicians, you know, could do things personal benefits and things that politicians today wouldn' ; t dare do but they could get away with it. Gene Talmadge, when he ran for governor, they said, " ; You stole so many bales of cotton when you were the commissioner of Agriculture." ; And he said, " ; Yeah I stole them but I stole them for you." ; And the people said fine and voted for him. Well you couldn' ; t get away with any kind of statement like that today and I think that I was at the crossroad at the time in history when the political arena in this state changed. I think, too, because of that particular time with all the Civil Rights and all the changes that took place I took the high road. And some of the other southern states around us, Mississippi and Alabama and Louisiana, they took a different road. But because I took the high road and I accepted the law of the land as being, we being a government of laws and not a government of men, I think Georgia came into the limelight--at that particular time when I was elected governor Birmingham, Alabama was better situated economically to take the leadership of the south in Atlanta, Georgia but because we took the high road when I was elected governor and accepted the law of the land and eliminated all these racial barriers and things. I opened up the National Guard, I opened up the State Patrol, Atlanta and Georgia took the leadership in the south. People living in other parts of America moved to Georgia that never would have moved here before. Educators came into our schools that never would have moved into Georgia and taken jobs in our schools. We captured the leadership of the south and that' ; s what we have today and I think I happened to be at the right time with the right attitude about what we needed to do in the state in order to do that. JUSTICE: Many of the issues that were on the table in the 60' ; s such as the national and state economy, civil rights, international relations, are still at the forefront of controversy today. SANDERS: Yeah, the racial business is still very much involved. People don' ; t call it racial but it is. It' ; s still involved. And the economic situation is of course very much involved today. The foreign relations is a tremendous problem. JUSTICE: Do you think we' ; ve made progress since the 60' ; s? SANDERS: I think we, in the south and particularly in Georgia, I think Georgia has made a lot of progress but I' ; m not so sure many other places have made as much progress as we have. JUSTICE: Why do you think Georgia has--? SANDERS: Because I think we had more enlightened leadership at the critical time than other parts of the country had. And I think enlightened leadership brought on more enlightened leadership later on and it' ; s just like anything else, you get into the habit of enlightened people seeking public office. They give you a better form of government and a better economic opportunity than if you put people in there who are not enlightened, who still want to live in the past and who still want to fight the Civil War over again and all that sort of stuff, who still want to keep this country isolated from the rest of the world. I think we, fortunately, went down a more enlightened road in this state than most any other state that I know anything about. JUSTICE: What do you think is the most critical issue facing us today, politically speaking? SANDERS: Politically I think the most critical issue is that we are not looked upon today in the world in the same manner that we used to be looked upon. We used to be admired and respected all over the world for our political beliefs, our economic beliefs and everything else. I think we are, today, more isolated economically and more isolated foreign relation wise than we' ; ve ever been. I used to take my grandchildren, when I was out of office, at least on a trip once a year somewhere else in some other part of the world and did that so that they would have a benefit later on in life to being better educated about the world. Today I wouldn' ; t do that because I think there are too many places in the world today if you come in there and say you' ; re an American instead of them saying, " ; We' ; re glad to see you. We respect you so much and your country," ; they say, " ; Well, you' ; re an American. We don' ; t like you. We want to harm you," ; and we' ; ve got a long ways to go to regain the credibility that we are a nation of--free nation who believes in freedom for all people and we' ; ve got to do something about it or I don' ; t know where we' ; re headed. JUSTICE: How do we go about fixing that? SANDERS: I think we' ; re going to have to do what we said earlier and that is we' ; re going to have to elect more enlightened leadership in this country in order to do that. JUSTICE: Philosophically speaking, and the bigger picture, what are the marks of a good governor? What are the benchmarks that make a good governor? SANDERS: Well, I think he first has to understand the government and he has to understand that he' ; s representing all of the people of the state. And secondly I think he' ; s got to lay out in front of him and in front of the people that he' ; s serving a program that they understand. And then thirdly I think he' ; s got to be willing to pay the price to whatever it takes to work as hard as he needs to work to implement the program that he has run on. And most people sometimes get the impression, I think, that they can run on some issues and then once they get elected they can discard those issues and forget about them. I think a good governor has got to stick to his guns and stick to his programs and tell people that he' ; s doing exactly what he told them he would do when he ran and asked them to vote for him. And I think if you abandon that process and you say well I may have said that but I lied, I shouldn' ; t have said what I said you never make a good governor. And you gotta be independent enough where you' ; re willing to accept the fact that you' ; re not going to win every battle and you' ; re not going to be able to accomplish everything that you feel like you would have liked to accomplish but you gotta be willing to say, " ; If I lose a battle I' ; ll win another one and I' ; ll keep on until I accomplish what I said I would accomplish when I went in front of the people and said ' ; Elect me and I' ; ll do what I said I' ; d do if you elect me.' ; " ; JUSTICE: Are there any governors since your term in office that have distinguished themselves in meeting these benchmarks that you' ; ve laid out? SANDERS: Oh, I think a lot of them have. It depends on what you mean by distinguishing themselves. I don' ; t know of anybody right off the top of my head that I think has not distinguished themselves in the office. I just think that they haven' ; t had the tools or the power to work with that I had. Now Zell Miller when he was governor did something, when he ran for governor, did something that I probably would not have done. He ran on creating a state lottery and of course I thought that was sort of living in the Bible belt and living in this thing. I didn' ; t think that was a [End Side 1]--Good governor' ; s, in my opinion, some of them have been impeded with reluctant Speaker of the House or reluctant lieutenant governor at times and they just maybe haven' ; t been able to accomplish as many things as they would have liked to accomplished. JUSTICE: How much effect do you think that the press has on the effectiveness of the governor? SANDERS: Oh the press has a lot of influence. The press can take a piece of straight bread every day and twist it into a French roll and if they twist it there' ; s not much you can do about it. You can say something and if they twist it the way they want to twist it won' ; t look anything like what you said. So the press has a great deal of influence on anybody' ; s public chair. JUSTICE: Now has that changed since the 1960s? SANDERS: Well I think it' ; s worse now than it was back then. Now they go after your family and they go after--go into your bedrooms and things like that. Back in my day and time they didn' ; t do that. JUSTICE: The press was fairly kind to you in your day. SANDERS: I thought they were very kind to me. JUSTICE: Well, thank you for your time and speaking with us today. SANDERS: I enjoyed it. I hope somebody later in history will take the time to listen to it. JUSTICE: Well, thank you very much. [End of Interview] Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 RBRL175OHD-009.xml RBRL175OHD-009.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL175OHD-009/findingaid
Location
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Atlanta, Georgia
Duration
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95 minutes
Repository
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Carl Sanders, August, 17, 2004
Identifier
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RBRL175OHD-009
Creator
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Carl Sanders
George Justice
Format
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video
oral histories
Subject
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State governments--Officials and employees
Depressions--1929
World War, 1939-1945
United States. Army. Air Corps
School integration
Politics and Public Policy
Description
An account of the resource
George Justice interviews Carl E. Sanders about his activities as a Georgia state senator, governor, and business leader. Sanders discusses his early life, his involvement with the YMCA, and the state of youth during the Great Depression. He recalls serving in the ROTC, Army Air Corps, and World War II. Sanders comments on his time in law school at the University of Georgia and his competitive spirit. He reflects on his campaigns the general assembly and for governor. Sanders recalls the integration of the University of Georgia, the establishment of Augusta College (later Georgia Regents University), and the effect of World War II on young politicians. He discusses his relationships with John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, and Richard B. Russell. Sanders discusses his political legacy, Georgia's progress, and the effect of press on the office of governor.
Date
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2004-08-17
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
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Georgia
Type
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moving image
OHMS
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Dublin Core
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Title
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First Person Project
Subject
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Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
Description
An account of the resource
The First Person Project was launched by the Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies in 2012 to record and preserve stories of life in post-twentieth century Georgia. Modeled roughly on StoryCorps, the First Person Project is smaller in scale but similar in concept--an oral history program designed to capture the stories of everyday Georgians. Interviewees are self-selecting. Pairs of friends or loved ones register to participate in the First Person Project on a designated day, and the conversation (up to forty minutes) is facilitated and recorded by Russell archivists. <br /><br />The First Person Project collects personal narratives and oral histories documenting life in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries. Interviews are usually between two friends or family members and typically focus on personal stories such as relationships and family histories. Interviews also touch on larger historical and cultural themes such as racial identity, religion, environmental history, gay rights, the death penalty, and life in Athens and in Georgia.<br /><br />The First Person is divided into five series. <br /><a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=58&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=I.+Georgia+Narratives">I. Georgia Narratives</a><br /><a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=58&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=II.+Americus,+Georgia">II. Americus, Georgia </a><br />
<div style="margin-left:2em;">Americus, Georgia, interviews were recorded in Americus, Ga., at the Lee Council House in December 2013. Interviews were made possible through a partnership between the Russell Library, the UGA Archway Partnership, and the Americus Downtown Development Authority.</div>
<a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=58&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=III.+Hawkinsville,+Georgia">III. Hawkinsville, Georgia</a><br />
<div style="margin-left:2em;">Hawkinsville, Georgia, interviews were recorded in Hawkinsville, Ga., at the Hawkinsville Dispatch & News building in February 2014. Interviews were made possible through a partnership between the Russell Library and the UGA Archway Partnership.</div>
<a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=58&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=IV.+Plains,+Georgia">IV. Plains, Georgia</a><br />
<div style="margin-left:2em;">Plains, Georgia, interviews were recorded in Plains, Ga., at the Plains Historic Inn in February 2014. Interviews were made possible through a partnership between the Russell Library, the UGA Archway Partnership, and the Americus Downtown Development Authority.</div>
<a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=58&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=V.+Beech+Haven,+Athens,+Georgia">V. Beech Haven, Athens, Georgia</a><br />
<div style="margin-left:2em;">Beech Haven, Athens, Georgia, interviews were recorded in Athens, Ga., through a partnership between the Russell Library and Dr. Cari Goetcheus, College of Environment and Design, UGA.
<div></div>
</div>
<br /><br /><a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=12&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&exhibit=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
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2012-2018
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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Oral histories
Identifier
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RBRL324FPP
Coverage
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Georgia
Hyperlink
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Duration
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54 minutes
Location
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Athens, Georgia
URL
<h3><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><a href="http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL324FPP-0061/audio" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Access Interview </a></span></h3>
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Subcollection/Series
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I. Georgia Narratives
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RBRL324FPP-0061
Title
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Interview with Edsel Benson, March 3, 2015
Subject
The topic of the resource
World War, 1939-1945
United States--Veterans
Cold War
United States. Army. Air Corps
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-03-03
Creator
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H. Edsel Benson
Alexandra Krier
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
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oral histories
Type
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sound
Description
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Edel Benson was born in 1921 in Athens, Georgia. Benson attended Athens High School and the University of Georgia. He served as a Second Lieutenant over the 48th fighters squadron in WWII. In this interview, Benson talks about his time in Europe and Africa during WWII, his most memorable moments from the war, the use of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and his thoughts on the Cold War and current international relations. <br /><br/><br/>This interview is part of the <a href="https://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=58&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=is+exactly&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=I.+Georgia+Narratives">Georgia Narratives</a> series.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Athens Oral History Project
Description
An account of the resource
The Athens Oral History Project was initiated in 2014 to document modern Athens history, roughly from the mid-twentieth century to the present. Interviews cover topics such as neighborhoods and communities in Athens, civil rights demonstrations, African American history, as well as personal histories of narrators.<br /><br /><span><strong>Content Warning</strong>: Some interviews in this collection contain harmful or distressing content, to include racism, racial violence, and racial slurs.</span><br /><br /><a href="http://georgiaoralhistory.libs.uga.edu/items/browse?search=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bjoiner%5D=and&advanced%5B0%5D%5Belement_id%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Btype%5D=&advanced%5B0%5D%5Bterms%5D=&range=&collection=1&type=&tags=OHMS&featured=&subcollections=0&subcollections=1&submit_search=Search+for+items">View all OHMS indexed interviews in this collection here.</a>
Creator
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Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-ongoing
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP
Subject
The topic of the resource
Georgia--History, Local
Georgia--Communities
African Americans--History
Athens Black History
Rights
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http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Oral histories
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
OHMS Object
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https://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-019/ohms
OHMS Object Text
Contains OHMS index and/or transcript and is what makes the contents of the OHMS object searchable.
4 2016-06-08 Interview with Ed Benson, June 8, 2016 RBRL361AOHP-019 RBRL361AOHP Athens Oral History Project AOHP 019 Interview with Ed Benson Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies, University of Georgia Ed Benson Gary Bertsch oral history 0 Kaltura video < ; iframe id=" ; kaltura_player" ; src=" ; https://cdnapisec.kaltura.com/p/1727411/sp/172741100/embedIframeJs/uiconf_id/26879422/partner_id/1727411?iframeembed=true& ; playerId=kaltura_player& ; entry_id=1_zlkemqx3& ; flashvars[localizationCode]=en& ; flashvars[leadWithHTML5]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.position]=left& ; flashvars[sideBarContainer.clickToClose]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[chapters.layout]=vertical& ; flashvars[chapters.thumbnailRotator]=false& ; flashvars[streamSelector.plugin]=true& ; flashvars[EmbedPlayer.SpinnerTarget]=videoHolder& ; flashvars[dualScreen.plugin]=true& ; & ; wid=1_oods8bkh" ; width=" ; 400" ; height=" ; 285" ; allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozAllowFullScreen frameborder=" ; 0" ; > ; < ; /iframe> ; English 50 Early life Ed, let's begin with your growing up in Athens. Benson recalls his early life in Athens, Georgia, describing his father's entrepreneurial attitude and his various business ventures, including a bakery where Benson worked as the delivery boy growing up. Benson describes attending both the Methodist and Baptist church growing up, as well as being part of the Tuck Class, a Sunday school class similar to the Rotary Club held at the Athens First United Methodist Church. Athens Firs United Methodist Church ; bakery ; business ; church ; entrepreneur ; family ; H.C. Tuck Class ; religion ; restaurant ; Sunday school 17 592 Public service Ed, let's talk about your involvement in the community over the years. Benson recalls the integration of the Athens public schools in 1971, and his mentoring of a young Michael Thurmond, who was later elected as the first black representative to the Georgia General Assembly from Clarke County. Benson also discusses creating the LLL (Listening, Learning, and Leading) Club, representing local black and white leadership in promoting race discussion and problem-solving. dialogue ; integration ; intersectional ; Listening, Learning, and Leading Club ; LLL Club ; Michael Thurmond ; public education ; public schools ; race ; teaching 17 1017 Mentoring through local Athens organizations I know you've done a lot of mentoring of people. Benson talks about early public service experience in the Rotary Club after World War II, and describes his involvement in organizations such as the Boys and Girls Club, United Way, and the Clarke County Mentor Program. Benson talks about Kevin Epps, the first student that he mentored. Boys and Girls Club ; Peggy Galis ; Rotary Club ; United Way ; YMCA ; Young Mens Christian Association 17 1687 Rotary Club / Meals on Wheels Well, it's interesting to hear about the involvement of Rotary and its values and influence and meaning it had in your life. Benson discusses his long-time involvement in the Rotary Club, which included becoming the president of the Athens Rotary Club at age 28, and later stepping up to the role of District Governor. Benson talks about volunteering through Meals on Wheels for 13 years, during which time he began mentoring a young girl. adoption ; disability ; food insecurity ; leadership ; mentoring ; public service ; volunteer 17 2068 Entering UGA / Flight school training You've been involved in the university--a graduate of the university--a fan of the university. Benson talks about being at the University of Georgia between 1938-1942, during which time he was in ROTC and trained to be a pilot in the Army Air Corps. After graduation, he expected to serve as a fighter pilot but was instead reassigned to England as a flight intelligence officer. 48th Fighter Squadron ; army training ; college flight program ; draft ; England ; fighter squadron ; Fort Benning ; P-38 plane ; pilot ; World War II 17 2358 North African tour We stayed in England for two months and we found out we were going somewhere. Benson recalls his team's expedition to North Africa, which followed routes between Tébessa, Casablanca, and Algiers. He discusses the dynamic of his team, including the strong bond formed over their 23-month service together, as well as how he was affected by the deaths of many of his team members in a German air strike. Algeria ; Army Air Corps ; bombing ; Casablanca Conference ; Morocco ; North African theater ; unconditional surrender doctrine ; World War II 17 2726 Continued connection to UGA Maybe we'll just wrap up with a few words about the University of Georgia. Benson talks about his continued involvement with the University of Georgia through the alumni program and the UGA Foundation. alumni relations ; donation ; fundraising ; University of Georgia Foundation 17 No transcript. Resources may be used under the guidelines described by the U.S. Copyright Office in Section 107, Title 17, United States Code (Fair use). Parties interested in production or commercial use of the resources should contact the Russell Library for a fee schedule. video 0 http://ohms.libs.uga.edu/viewer.php?cachefile=russell/RBRL361AOHP-019.xml RBRL361AOHP-019.xml http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP/findingaid http://purl.libs.uga.edu/russell/RBRL361AOHP-019/findingaid 0
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
48 minutes
Location
The location of the interview
Athens, Georgia
Repository
Name of repository the interview is from
Richard B. Russell Library for Political Research and Studies
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ed Benson, June 8, 2016
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RBRL361AOHP-019
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-08
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
oral histories
Subject
The topic of the resource
School integration
Community organization
Mentoring in education
United States. Army. Air Corps
World War, 1939-1945
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Ed Benson
Gary Bertsch
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Athens, Georgia
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
moving image
OHMS